Could James Toney ever have touched Roy Jones?

frankenfrank,

Tell me what you know.

You won't give him credit for anything.

True, but most of those were mandatories, and apart from 1997, they fought in different weight classes to each other.

I too would have liked to have seen a rematch around 2002/2003, but Roy became obsessed with going up to HW. But I can't see how anyone could criticise him for not pushing for it.

 

Yeah, I've posted in that thread.

It was too much to ask him to go through that again.

I'm still surprised that he took the fight in the first place.

Love him or hate him, Ali had some real guts.


Why don't you post in the general as much these days?

 

Because the majority of the threads are either pro or anti Pac, or Mayweather, and if they are not, they get morphed into that scenario. And I really don't care what either Bob Arum, or Richard Ellerbe, or some rapper did or didn't say.

 

I now avoid those threads at all cost, though to be fair, they have died down a little.

 

Toney landed some okay punches--I remember a nice left hook or two. Roy didn't reat though. The chin issues came much later.

 

Due to Mirena loosening the ropes intentionally and working with Ali on the rope a dope tactic before the fight.
Also it is more than just a possibility that Foreman was dehydrated/drugged/sleep deprived in some manner or a combination of them.

 

Toney rehydrated from 167 to 184 and I wonder if it was even a 100% rehydration (probably not). It does not even include the weight loss from other factors (loss of glucagon and fat, which admittedly Toney had plenty of the latter)
Toney had an eating disorder.
He still has it, but Jones caught him just in time when he ate himself out of a division.

I give him for what he deserves.

He fought Virgil Hill 2lbs over the 175 limit.
He would have had no problem fighting Toney @ 175 / 177 by the time Toney rose to 175.
He would have had no problem fighting Toney when Toney moved up to 190 and later to 190+.
After both barely scraped by Ruiz it had even more sense.
Toney is not a bigger man than Jones, just much fatter.

Well Toney was a "HW" and even as a "CW" he would have loved to move up to 190+ to fight Jones again. Later Toney even had a top 10 ranking at HW and I am sure he would have loved to give Jones the opportunity to gain a HW ranking.

 

frankenfrank,

I know all of the above. I thought you were doubting specific things she said though, and had reasons etc.

I know that you don't.

I see where you're coming from, and it would have been nice.

But Toney had to bring something to the table, like a belt for Roy to have really pushed for it.

You've got to look at the timelines.

Roy fought Hill at a catchweight because the Douglas fight had fallen through. The previous year Roy had got to tie up the loose ends against Griffin and get his belt back.

In the same year he fought Hill, he beat Del Valle for the WBA. Toney was gone at that point.

After Del Valle, Roy was determined to unify against Reggie. At that point Toney couldn't make LHW anymore.

Unless it was for huge money, there was no need to try and fight Toney at a catchweight.

I think if Toney had've owned one of the LHW belts when Roy moved up, I think Roy would definitely have fought him. That's my honest opinion.

In 2001, HBO tried to make a Dariusz M fight in the U.S. and when it didn't materialise Roy fought a few mandatories before going up to HW.

I also think if Toney had've held one of the HW belts when Roy went up, he'd have fought him.

Roy's currently motivated to try and win a CW belt before he retires. But in my opinion, it's just an excuse to prolong his career. It never interested him back when he went to HW. He never gave it a seconds thought.

After the Ruiz fight, all Roy wanted was huge money. He wanted huge money to remain at HW and it never came. So he took Tarver's bait. A fight against Toney instead of Tarver would have been great. But Toney wouldn't have brought huge money, and facing Tarver to reclaim the LHW titles, was a chance to create history.

So I believe it was just circumstances.

From Roy's point of view, he'd got nothing to prove by rematching him, and again, he wouldn't have brought huge money or a belt.

If circumstances had been different, I think we'd have seen it.

I agree.

But everyone has different circumstances and different goals.

What if Toney had've beaten Roy easily in 94?

Would he have rematched Roy with no title on the line, if he'd have got other title fights lined up, where he could make history and more money etc?

Nobody knows. But it's possible that he wouldn't have been interested.

But Roy shouldn't get any criticism for not pushing for the rematch.

 

If an excuse is made for Toney being drained , you can make an excuse for Roy still learning and never having fought at SMW before ,so imo the playing fields were even.

 

Toney would have had a rematch with Jones if he beat Montell Griffin in their second fight.

 

Roy did not have to push for a rematch b/c Toney wanted it more than he did. And why not shut his ass? especially since "Roy would have always beat Toney", so it was an opportunity to show that he was really better,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,



except that he was not better.
So he grabbed that 168 belt and that record win and fled away into the sunset with them fighting the Pazienzas, McCallums, Hills and Rocky Gannons of the world instead.

And of course I have no problem with him fighting Tarver 3 times (which backfired). Even Glen Johnson was a handpicked opponent, but he backfired. Now I do not have a problem with Roy's choice of him, but if I followed it then, I would have had.

And I do give Roy some credit for beating Clinton Woods and Julio Gonzalez, but this is the highest level of opponents that he could ever beat convincingly and NOT Toney.

 

frankenfrank,

Again, he didn't need a rematch to shut him up, and I've shown you the timeline.

They fought in different weight classes, and had different goals.

This is where you let yourself down in debates.

You're very biased.

He didn't flee into the sunset. A fight with Benn was hard to make, and Liles turned down his biggest pay day to fight Roy. So he had nowhere to go. He couldn't unify. His options were to fight Collins for the lightly regarded WBO, or go up to LHW for a new challenge. So that's what he did. He didn't run anywhere.

He then went up to LHW, and fought everyone relevant apart from Dariusz.

The fact that Roy fought Tarver three times, should tell you that he didn't run away and was only content to face subpar opposition.

Rubbish.

Did he not beat Reggie, Hill and Griffin convincingly?

He beat Sosa easily, he beat Hopkins with a fractured hand.

I think he'd have beaten Toney easy if he'd have been fully fit.

He beat Ruiz with ease.

Once again, you're being silly.

 

While it was before the Toney fight, Jones destroyed Thomas Tate.

 

Frank doesn't appreciate anything that Roy did.

 

Clearly. Toney would have had the chance at Jones if he beat Griffin in their rematch, but lost. Even if Toney got the decision he probably has problems making weight again.