Sonny Liston - No Title Shot Because of KO 1 to Ali?

Liston couldn't draw a crowd. People were never sure if it would be a fight or a first round dive.

 

Liston still was a very good fighter and probably could have provided a stiff test to top guys, including Frazier. But the bottom line is you are correct, after Ali, no one was going to allow him to challenge for the title again, or have a big-time fight again. Fact is most people thought he was associated with the mob and took a dive in the second fight, and even if it wasn't a dive, the fact that he quit in one fight and went out in one round in another against Ali meant that his marketability for a big-time fight was dead. And that gave top contenders who might have been concerned about fighting a dangerous guy like that an excuse not to fight him. You might be in tough and lose, and even if you win, the victory might be suspect.

 

After the second Ali fight, I think his situation was similar to Bruce Seldon pos Tyson fight: no one else could take him seriously as a fighter and as a man. He lost all credibility.

 

Nikrj hit it on the head.

 

Liston simply could not be trusted after the despicable showing in Lewiston. That worked both ways, you didn't know if he would puss out vs a contender and you damn sure didn't want to put him in with your hot prospect for fear he might grow a set of balls.

 

Sonny represented exactly what boxing wanted to distance itself from for credibility: a mafia fighter with a shady background.

To be fair, the mob associations in the public's mind weren't without merit.

That's how a fight of the magnitude of Ali-Liston II winds up in Lewiston, Maine in the first place.

 

Judging by how highly he is rated nowdays (as seen on this forum) the passing of time has certainly changed everyone's opinion of him.

Maybe one day the same will happen to Seldon.

 

Conversely, a guy like Patterson got KO'd in 1 round twice by Liston, but because he was well liked and had no mob ties, and the KOs looked legitimate, he was given an opportunity to prove himself against Chuvalo, which earned him a title shot against Ali.

 

Excellent point. :good Fully agree.

And no one ever questioned the legitimacy of those Liston-Patterson fights.

 

He had been basically black balled from contention... After putting together a respectable win streak from 1966 onward he was surely as qualified to enter the late 60's elimination tournament as a lot of the guys who actually partook in it, but his name had been tarnished to the point where no promotor wanted anything to do with him. He was ranked in the top 10 when Martin stopped him.

 

:-((

In many ways, Sonny was the perfect mob fighter.

One of them was that he carried legitimate knockout power, so any fighter taking a dive wouldn't arouse suspicion.

I'm not implying the Patterson fights in particular were fixed, but given the mob habit of betting on KO rounds, it's just smart business to rig a fight when your man's a monster puncher. Nobody would ever really question it.

Given the mob control (influence seems like too gentle of a word), I'd be surprised if there weren't other rigged fights on his ledger somewhere. That's not to downplay Sonny; that was just the nature of the beast.

 

I think the attitude of the power players at that time was "Liston had his chance and look what he did with it?".

Don't forget when he was THE outstanding contender (1961) there was quite a campaign to allow Sonny the chance to challenge for the title. It was not as it is for Bernard Hopkins today where a fighter can wear his past as an example of proving himself as a redeemed character who proved himself on the street. The world was very much still run by those who fought in WW2.

Being an ex covict was a huge deal and more of a stigma than it is today. At the time there were a lot of articles about giving Sonny the chance to prove he had changed, that he deserved a shot on merit. That he could still be an example and inspiration to America.

Without those fights being fixed all those who campaigned to get him the shot would still feel they had been let down. And as said before it was also an excuse for contenders to make a name off easier fighters to beat.

 

Apples and oranges.
Floyd got the Chuvalo fight because he fought stupid against Sonny (in the pundits eyes) and he came back in 64 kicking Eddie Machen's ass.
At the same time the Great Ali emerged. After Ali beat Patterson in Vegas (Nov 65) Floyd was damaged goods in the public's eyes. The 'pundits' and public wanted a new face. In 66 Patterson went to England and knocked Cooper's d**k stiff. May have won BOTH Quarry fights but it didn't matter. Then came the elimination tourney and by the time new WBA champ Ellis faced Floyd in Stockholm the 'pundits' and the public wanted new blood in Ali's absence. No chance for Floyd do get a piece of the title for a third time. "Let's move on, Floyd is a relic" in everyone's eyes. Game stacked against him. After Ellis and until Ali beat him in 72, Patterson showed himself as the ATG champ that he was as an aging fighter. Feel free to disagree.