If Futch was Ali's cornerman.

...Ali would've lost in Manila.

 

Ah, what I meant was, specifically if things had gone exactly as they had through fourteen in Manila (which, granted, you're right, removing Futch as variable in Frazier's corner - and Dundee from Ali's - while inserting Futch into Ali's corner - that should probably have quite a ripple effect...I'm not sure, though, I still feel like they would have beaten the **** outta each other at that stage of their careers and given all their acrimonious past history...so even allowing for some variance they would've been in more or less the condition they found themselves on their stools before the fifteenth) then Futch would've insisted on keeping Ali from answering the bell the way he kept Frazier. (while damn near anybody else but Futch might've been too intimidated by Joe to lose the argument with him in the other corner)

Ali w/ Futch vs. Norton is a pretty interesting question!

 

I disagree on the Thrilla in Manilla: Futch stopped the fight because Joe was blind, couldn't see the right hand. Ali was beaten up but could see.

And if the premise of this means that putting Futch in Ali's corner (and camp) also takes Futch away from Norton and Frazier ... that's a big tipping point in Ali's favor. Without Futch to figure out Ali, I don't think Norton fares as well. Frazier is pretty much Smokin' Joe no matter who is in the corner, but I suspect Norton benefitted greatly from Futch's game-planning.

 

When did Futch become Frazier head trainer?

 

Anyone other than Futch would. :good

Joe was bound and determined to answer the bell, even blind. I don't know that any voice other than Eddie's would have prevailed there.

 

This. Although some say he listened to D'Amato on occasion.

 

I don't believe Futch would have had much imput or impact, Ali changed his methods and repotore by trainers only slightly during his career and then didn't keep those improvements. His style was always athletic and not technical, Eddie wouldn't have been able to craft his wares with Muhammad.

 

Eddie once said that he was always Joe's real/main trainer, that Yank liked the publicity and would place himself in all the gym publicity sessions with Frazier, but that all the daily grind was him and Joe.

 

Ali would've been unbeatable.

 

Good point.

Norton is rightly credited for fighting Ali in a very smart way, frustating him and taking maximum advantage of Ali's weak points. However, some credit must got to Futch too.

 

There are two times I recall where Ali altered his repotore slightly on a trainers advice, against Jurgen Blin he had some karate instruction on throwing his right hand straighter and harder and the results were noticeable, and before the Jimmy Ellis bout where Dundee trained Jimmy he practiced by the book slipping from the waist from another trainer to try and avoid Ellis right leads. Other then that he just did what came naturally to him.