Muhammad Ali at his best vs. Wladimir Klitschko at his best, who wins?

The only similarities, are in height, weight and reach.

Haye is fast, but it's an explosive 1-2 for the most part.

He didn't have the variation and the combinations that Ali had.

In terms of overall speed, covering every aspect, there's no similarities in my opinion.

 

:good

 

Dino,

how's it going mate?

When Butch Coolidge spoke of Haye being better than Spinks, he was talking about Leon, not Michael.

It appears that on every thread regarding Ali, he always brings up the Spinks defeat when Ali was shot at 36.

I don't know why that is, because it's completely irrelevant.


:good

 

good

 

Great post!

You've made some great points.

:good

 

His post is full of irrelevant facts. Wlad has kept himself in great shape, using a very successful boxing strategy that limits danger and maximises his natural talents. Mainly thanks to Steward, Wlad has been able to last so long with limited damage. But Ali's era was another kettle of fish. He faced not 1 but multiple Champions and all-time greats. He went from fighting in his peak, to political/racist struggles and being banned. The guy fought well past his peak and still beat some great fighters. It's not Wlad's fault but he hasn't faced one great fighter, not even remotely. The only great he could have faced was a past prime Lewis, and he would have been blown away pre-Steward anyway.

Wlad has been a very good Champion but you can't dismiss the level of his opposition.

 

I agree entirely.

Every fighter has a different set of circumstances surrounding them.

Ali took lots of punishment that aged him very quickly.

But what does it say about the man, when his best wins were after his prime?

I've read that he used to get pounded on in training.

Wlad now fights very cautious, in a much weaker era.

Doing a head to head comparison between two 36 year old fighters, almost 30 years apart, is completely pointless.

 

Ali lost rounds to Bugner and Wepner, that Ali is not beating Klitschko unless you think the moon is a bit of blue cheese. And little Leon Spinks would be hospitalised for months if he faced current 38 y/o Wlad. H2H Wlad is going to beat Ali, and be the favourite due to several factors, but Ali is still the greater fighter of course.

 

Wlad only tends to clinch a lot when faced against fighters that get inside a lot, when faced with opponents who boxed from range like Ali he tends to box, Haye fight would be a good example. Even though Haye was far smaller he tried to box at a distance and move in and out. Wlad didn't need to clinch here. Ali would adopt similar tactics and try to move in and out, so Wlad's clinching may not be an issue.

Even if Wlad doesn't clinch excessively Ali may have the key to beat the jab and grab. Speed is the key. Other fighters that have used similar jab and grab tactics have been undone by speed. Ruiz vs Toney and RJJ and Hopkins vs RJJ, Taylor and Dawson. The jab and grab relies on you getting your shots off first then smothering any attempt to trade and counter. Problem is when facing quicker opponents you will get beaten to the punch so clinching will only deny your attempt to counter.

 

Three things:

The title of the thread is "Muhammad Ali at his best vs. Wladimir Klitschko at his best, who wins?"

The Ali that fought Wepner and lost a couple of points due to a bogus KD, was not an "Ali at his best".

Bugner was, on his day, a very handy heavyweight, who would be a hard night's work for any heavyweight.


Additionally, I'm not really interested in Leon Spinks or what Wlad would do to him.

The gulf in class between an on top-form Ali and Wlad Klitschko is verging on immeasurable.

 

One importent issue is if Wladimir Klitschko would be able to land on Muhammed Ali, and David Haye is the only available measure stick. Overall Ali was superior to Haye, with regard to boxing skill, creativity, heart and well ... being a genious. But if we break out reflexes alone, Haye and Ali are equals. This is because Hayes reflexes are as good as the come, and so are Alis. If we are to determine who has the better reaction speed we would need a time machine and a session in a sports lab.

And it was Hayes reflexes that saved him from Wlads power, that otherwise would have broken him down.

There are several questionmarks regarding this fantasy match up.

1. Ali would try to outbox Wlad. This might make him more vulnurable for Wlads powershots, which is incredible dangerous. Punch for punch Wlad is probably the hardest hitting heavyweight ever, which is the same as beeing the hardest hitting boxer of all times. But it's also possible that Alis boxing would confuse Wlad and make him catious. Either option would have a huge impact on the fight. I believe Wlads reaction to Alis skill is the most importent questionmark.

2. Wlads octopus routine. If Ali fails to neglect it, he will get a big hug every time he gets on the inside. Stopping a guy from grappling you is bloody damn hard - ask any boxer who has fought a wrestler. But not even Wlad can get hold of his man every time he gets close and the difference in reach, while real, isn't that big.

3. Alis lack of power. Having little to fear Wlad might let his hands go. That spells a KO in his favour. I think Wlad simply outpowering Ali is a possible opition.

4. Ali is Ali. Even if we assume Wlad would be able to win rounds by beeing active with his jab and tie Ali up on the inside, Ali might pull a rabbit out of his hat and do something we aren't able to predict.

All things considered, I'd favour Wlad to barely win on points. His size, speed, power, boxing skill and particular style turns him into a winning machine that is very hard to dismantle.

Still, running a scenario where Wlad fought 20 guys and Ali fought the same 20 guys I think Ali would have done better, assuming we talk about very good opponents on HOF- or ATG-level. I don't consider Wlad to be superior head to head, but I think he is the wrong guy for Ali.

 

Immeasurable?

Ali typically kept his hands around his waist, you can't do that against Wlad.

You name it, Wlad can trouble him with his big 3 punches.

Ali also has a tendency to pull straight back which would play into a superior boxer/puncher in Wladimir.

Ali would not be able to clinch and hold down on his opponents head with WK as Wlad is a much, much taller and stronger opponent which would make MA very tired.

Due to Muhammad Ali's technical deficiencies he would not win against someone as refined as Wladimir.

 

Maybe.

But Wlad relies on his jab when his opponent is causing him trouble. He doesn't need to set himself to throw it and he doesn't lose balance when it misses. Above everything else, it's fast. Someone who tries to counter it also needs to worry about the right hand coming out.

Taking away Wlads jab by counters seems like science fiction to me. Alis hope is rather that his remarkable boxing skill would confuse Wlad and make him lose the plot when he no longer can control the fight like he is used to.

 

Darting in and out at will can be done if you have excellent footwork speed and reflexes - not to mention ring IQ. If you fight flatfooted plodder, that is.

But can you do it against someone who has above good footwork, speed and reflexes himself?

I'm sceptical.

 

A lot of emphasis is being put on what Ali needs to do with Wlad and the problems he would face. But what about the reverse?

Does Wlad have the stamina to last with a peak Ali who could move and fight for 15?

Also, I can't agree with many that seem to suggest Ali was feather-fisted. He wasn't a big concussive puncher but he punched hard enough to earn respect. No body walked through Ali's punches.

Finally, if Ali fought now, with emphasis on conditioning I'd expect him to carry a little more muscle, so the discrepancy in weight wouldn't be as great as is being made out in this thread. If it is the case then what would Wlad be like in the 60s?