James Toney vs Joe Calzaghe.

Why I am asking is for greater understanding of where a poster is coming from

 

Bailey,

I'm not looking specifically at Barkley.

I'm looking more at the motivated and sharp version of Toney.

I would put that version of him forward in any SMW fantasy fight.

Which version of Joe would you pick to fight Toney in this fantasy fight?

The version who beat Eubank?

Or Lacy perhaps?

 

You can bring up whatever you want.

But again, earlier on in this thread, you seemed to be scoffing at the idea that Toney could beat Joe, because Joe had superior wins at the weight.

Toney didn't have 14 SMW fights. He only had 5.

I used the Joe vs Kov thread, as an example, to prove that you can view a fighters whole body of work to make a prediction, without just looking at what they'd done at one specific weight.

Joe could have had 60 fights at SMW.

Toney could have had 2.

But people could still predict that Toney could have beaten him had they fought.

Basically, I'm telling you to concentrate more on the fighters attributes, than the stats.

 

That's fine.

I thought you were asking for a specific reason that's all.

 

I'm not being funny, it's worthless debating someone who thinks guys like Mger Mkrtchyan are good competition, that guy got ko'd by a guy 1-0 three years before he fought Joe. The Super Middleweight division back then was pure **** with the exception of a few guys.

 

And to answer the question Toney at his best beats Calzaghe. If he had an off night which he was prone to do, Calzaghe outworks him.

 

Agreed, Roy's power was no joke.

 

I feel both those versions would beat Toney yes, though I think any version of motivated Calzaghe would beat motivated Toney

 

Calzaghe is overrated. Toney wins this one.

 

Fair enough.

But I don't agree.

 

Ok, Mkrtchyan was in 04 and he went on to beat the 26-0 Chanet, who was a good European champ and I would rate him above the European champ Groves recently beat.

Anyhow, tell me how 04 was not good compared to today

04
1. Calzaghe
2. Kessler (undefeated and prime)
3. Mundine (2 time SMW champ and fighter who when faded beat Geale who many feel is Golovkins best win)
4. Echoles
5. D Green (int SMW champ, LHW champ and world rated CW)
6. Lacy (became a SMW champ)
7. L****n
8. Reid (former SMW champ and looked unfortunate to many against Ottke)
9. Beyer (3 time SMW champ)
10. Siaca (became a SMW champ)

today
C. Ward (best win is faded Kessler who was #2 in 04)
1. Froch (lost to faded Kessler who was #2 in 04)
2. Abraham (who lost to Steiglitz who lost to Andrade from the previous era)
3. Groves who has very little SMW pedigree
4. DeGale, see above
5. Steiglitz, see above and recently drew with faded MW Sturm
6. Ant Dirrell who drew with Bika that lost in the previous era
7. Ramirez, whos big SMW win is?
8. And Dirrell, whos big SMW win is Abraham who has little SMW pedigree
9. Chavez Jnr, who some felt lost to a SMW journeyman
10. Sturm who has only had one fight at the weight

Now I agree that 04 wasnt the best year when Calzaghe was champ, but it looks stronger than today in my opinion

 

bailey,

Actually I'd forgotten about Toney's earlier fights, where sometimes he was the odd pound or two over the MW limit. According to boxrec, he fought 25 fights between 160-168. I was only looking from when he'd beaten Barkley. After he'd beaten Barkley, most of his fights were over the limit and were LHW and CW fights. That's been specific. Not that it really matters in the grand scheme of things.

Joe fought 33 times between 160-168. A few of his fights were over the limit by a pound or two, and would officially have been listed as LHW fights.

That's fine. There's always going to be exceptions.

But it's always better to give a prediction based on strengths and weaknesses, and the clash of styles etc, rather than just examining stats at the weight.

 

Judging a boxer from his best performences seems a bit too biased to me.

If Toney looked remarkable against opponent A but less remarkable against opponent B, this may have other reasons than him beeing motivated or not. A slight difference in the reaction time or power of opponent B perhaps threw Toney off his game.

It makes more sense to look at overall accomplishments in my opinion. Staying on top of ones game is a skill in itself.

 

That's fair enough.

But until I'm informed otherwise, I'm assuming that the TS is asking who would have won, with both guys being at their best.

Otherwise you'd have an endless debate.

Both fighters had off nights for whatever reason.

Accomplishments need taking into consideration, but the most important thing to look at, is their skill sets, their strengths and weaknesses, and the clash of styles that this fight would have brought.