Who did better vs Frank Moran? Jack Johnson or Jess Willard?

Barron Wilkins and **** Ellis organized the reception for Johnson. Wilkins had been a supporter of Johnson's for the better part of a decade and Ellis had been a friend of Johnson's for years and was now acting tentatively as his business manager.

 

On October 7, Joe Jennette returned to the ring in North Bergen, N.J. against debuting Italian fighter named Pat O’Rourke of New York. Working Jennette’s corner for the fight was his brother Marshall and

This content is protected

.

Hudson Dispatch October 9, 1905

Jennette knocked out O’Rourke in the fifth round of a scheduled six round affair. There were over one hundred sports at the s**** which took place at the “Old Gut,” Guttenberg race track. O’Rourke came out the aggressor and had Jennette hurt in the second round. In the third round Jennette knocked O’Rourke down four times. O’Rourke survived the fourth round on guts alone. In the fifth Joe caught Pat with a hard right hand that sent him toppling over. Referee John McDonald, a New York newspaperman, didn’t even bother to count. O’Rourke’s seconds put up no argument, as their charge was out cold. Jennette weighed 168 pounds for the bout, and O’Rourke weighed 197. The gate for the show was one hundred and fifty dollars. Jennette received twenty-five dollars for his effort.

[Jeannette was carried unconscious from the ring to his dressing room, where

This content is protected

, failing to revive him, sent him to the Pennsylvania Hospital. Johnson was placed under arrest and locked up in a nearby station house where he was held until Jeannette entirely recovered from the blow.

This content is protected

.]

Hudson Dispatch - Golden Jubilee 1924 * taken from articles of the time

This content is protected

Buffalo Courier May 21, 1919

This content is protected

The Ring “Last of the Big Four” September, 1958 * Joe Jennette quote

“Why, Jeffries can lose half his strength, have his endurance cut in two, carry a ton of extra weight and still whip Johnson. He has the head and heart to do it.”

Wilkes-Barre Times-Leader June 27, 1910 – quote Joe Jeannette

This content is protected

Washington D.C. Evening Star February 25, 1911 * Jack Johnson quote

Jack Johnson had been writing weekly stories about his boxing career in La Vie au Grand Air. On March 4, he wrote the following about his meetings with Jennette, as well as his meeting with Langford: “In July this year (1905), I fought four times, meeting with Morris Harris and Black Bill on the same day, July 15th. In all, thirteen times I fought that year. The last was a disputed six rounder on December 2nd against Joe Jeannette in Philadelphia, without a decision. In 1906 I met Joe Jeannette four times. Joe and I met so often that it became a game for us and we took much pleasure in our meetings. In our second meeting, which was six rounds, it was very serious and we both had much knowledge of each other, I was beaten on a foul in the second round.

“Later in the season, we met again in Baltimore, and I won a fifteen round decision. I reckon that was one of the best fights of Jeannette’s life. In April 1906, Langford and I found ourselves together for a fifteen rounder in Chelsea (Mass.). I found him one of the toughest opponents I have ever met in the ring. I weighed 190 pounds and Langford was only 138. In the second round, the little Negro hit me with a terrible blow to the right jaw, and I dropped like I was hit by a cannonball. Throughout my boxing career, not before, nor after, did I ever receive a blow that struck me with such force. I did all I could do to barely get back on my feet when the referee was counting ‘Ten!’ I succeeded but I assure you that I felt this blow for the rest of the match. I realized then that against a man like Langford, I should not discover that blow again and I used all of my knowledge to avoid it. In the fifteenth round, I was declared winner on points.

“In May of that year, I went to Gloucester (Mass.) and sent to the land of dreams Charlie Haghey with a few strokes. One-round was enough to prove to him and his friends that he had better choose another profession. Then I returned to Philadelphia, where I had a match of six-rounds, a no-decision, with Joe Jeannette.

This content is protected

.

This content is protected

La Vie Au Grand Air March 4, 1911 “Mes Combats” by Jack Johnson

“I expect to sign papers that will close the arrangements for a ten round fight with Jeannette in New York City,” said Johnson. “I have decided to fight this battle for the sake of my wife only. When I announced recently that I had withdrawn from the ring for good, I meant it, but my wife persuaded me to make one more fight.

This content is protected

. I am then going to quit the ring and retire to private life.”

New York Times August 13, 1912

“Great fighters used to come through that gym. Every once in a while

This content is protected

would come in or Sam Langford. There was Charlie Phil ********* and Jimmy Braddock. Joe Jeannette was my trainer and he told me, ‘I’ll let you fight up to a point and then I’m going to stop you. You’re not going to be a champ. But you are smart enough to make it in the world on your own.’ I wasn’t going to argue with the great Joe Jeannette. I learned all about his career at the gym. He never got a title shot, but as far as I could tell he wasn’t bitter about it. He was a quiet man and didn’t talk much about that part of his career.”

Charlie Gellman, or Chuck Halper, his ring name

When Boxing Was A Jewish Sport by Allen Bodner

 

So Jeannette weighed 190lbs on 5th of April 1906 when he faced Langford yet 7 months later, according to him he only weighed 165lbs when he fought Johnson for the last time?:huh
I'm sorry to tell you that Jeannette was not unconscious when he was carried to his dressing room.

" Jeannette after being thumped in lively fashion in the first round assumed a crouching pose inthe second round.
He undertook to run in and clinch ducking a vicious left -hand swing.Johnson ripped a right hand hook up for Jeannette's jaw. The latter dropped to the floor writhing in apparent agony.
He claimed to have been struck a foul blow"

He was removed to the dressing room and the club physician substantiated his claim.Johnson was promptly disqualified.
Jeannette proffessed to be in great pain and lay in his dressing room in apparent agony.It is understood that the police proposed to keep Johnson ,Jeannette and the club official under surveillance."
Adam Pollack says this was because the police were not convinced that the fight had not been fixed.
This is a ringside report from the Philadelphia Public Ledger.


Here is their version of events .

Johnson was beating Jeannette but lost via disqualification in the second round.
Johnson had been outclassing Jeannette for a round and a half but then lost as the result of an alleged foul.

Sorry I'll take a ringside report from a local paper every time .:good

 

sorry I'll take Joe Jennette's take on it...and yes, Jack Johnson never said it wasn't a low blow, in fact he admitted it was and never said Jennette was faking it...it's all in the newpaper archives...but you know it all...personally I never picked Johnson over Jennette...you want to push Jennette under the pugilistic rug...go for it...at least Jack Johnson not Anthony Reader...if that's your name...gave Joe Jennette credit.

 

Why would anyone take a fighters interpretation of his own worth and career over contemporary critics?

 

So you believe Johnson knocked Jeannette unconscious from a low blow?
Unconscious long enough for him to have to be carried from the ring and revived in his dressing room?
You believe him when he said Johnson deliberately fouled him ,although ringside reports say Johnson was winning handily?

In all your years of following boxing have you ever known/heard of of a boxer being knocked unconscious by a punch to the groin?

You believe Jeannette when, in his own words he states he weighed190lbs for the Langford fight on the 5th of April 1906 yet on the 26th of November of that year he only scaled 165lbs to fight Johnson.?
You believe him in spite of the fact that on the 14th of March of that year Jeannette scaled 185lbs when he fought Johnson in a previous bout?
You believe Jeannette when he says that in their 26th March fight Langford only scaled138lbs?
This in spite of the fact that 21 days later when Langford fought Jack Johnson he scaled 156lbs?
Here's the quote.
" In April 1906, Langford and I found ourselves together for a fifteen rounder in Chelsea (Mass.). I found him one of the toughest opponents I have ever met in the ring. I weighed 190 pounds and Langford was only 138"

So if this is true ,the Jeannette fight actually caused Langford to gain18lbs!

Further on this subject on the previous page, which I am going to quote directly from you posted George Armstrong ,Jeannette's manager stating the following:

This is in January1906, 4 months before Jeannette states he fought a 138lbs Langford.
"But they evidently forgot that he won from Jack Johnson, and had all the better of a go with the “Pink Pajama Man” until Jack remembered how Sandy Ferguson lost; and fouled Jeannette. Armstrong ridicules the claims that Jeannette had twenty pounds on Langford. He declares “Laughing Ho Ho Sam” is a middleweight, and that he would have hard work to weigh in under 155 pounds.

So we have Johnson being accused of deliberately fouling Jeannette because he was in danger of losing [inthe 2nd round]?
We also have Armstrong directly contradicting Jeannette on the subject of Langford's weight.

I've been careful to be extra polite to you because I know from experience how quickly you blow a fuse when anyone is less than fullsome in accepting your opinion on Joe Jeannette.
You have begun to regress to those old ways, beginning to be sarcastic in your replies to me and rather insuiting.

I'll confine myself to saying your posts are a paen of hero worship to your idol Mr Jeannette.

If you want to believe everything he and his manager said and take as gospel articles written in the twenties in preferance to ringside reports written the day of the fight that is your prerogative but try not to get upset when others of us are less credulous and require corroboration from primary sources before we swallow the "party line".
I must admit I expected this to end up in this fashion, just remember it was you who started the snide comments.
[what happened to your stated intention"I'm trying to be a better person" ] You didn't try for long did you?
Why my name should concern you I have no idea but, if you are interested it's in Adam Pollack's towering benchmark first volume of Jack Johnson "The Rise", among the acknowledgements.
I suggest you read it ,you'll be surprised how many first hand sources directly contradict so much of the propaganda you have been force feeding us these last couple of days.
NB the second volume," The Fall ,"is out shortly,I have a feeling you would enjoy that more than" The Rise".

For the record I give Joe Jeannette kudos, he was a fine fighter good enough to have been a champion had the white public allowed him to challenge for the crown, just not against a prime Johnson.

Johnson signed to defend against him twice in the US under the aegis of promoter McMahon, both times the authorities vetoed the fight .Blame the White Public for that not Johnson.
I don't believe a prime Jeannete beats a prime Johnson and ,outside of his manager and Jeannette himself, I have never read any piece by a reputable boxing expert that propagates that view.
You mentioned Nat Fleischer in an earlier post.
Q Who does he rate as the greatest heavyweight of all time?
Q Where does he rate Joe Jeannette?


Stay Well in the New Year.:good

 

This content is protected

This content is protected

had been

This content is protected

about his boxing career in

This content is protected

,

This content is protected

the following about his meetings with Jennette, as well as his meeting with Langford: “In July this year (1905), I fought four times, meeting with Morris Harris and Black Bill on the same day, July 15th. In all, thirteen times I fought that year. The last was a disputed six rounder on December 2nd against Joe Jeannette in Philadelphia, without a decision. In 1906 I met Joe Jeannette four times. Joe and I met so often that it became a game for us and we took much pleasure in our meetings. In our second meeting, which was six rounds, it was very serious and we both had much knowledge of each other, I was beaten on a foul in the second round.

“Later in the season, we met again in Baltimore, and I won a fifteen round decision. I reckon that was one of the best fights of Jeannette’s life.

This content is protected

This content is protected

. In the second round, the little Negro hit me with a terrible blow to the right jaw, and I dropped like I was hit by a cannonball. Throughout my boxing career, not before, nor after, did I ever receive a blow that struck me with such force. I did all I could do to barely get back on my feet when the referee was counting ‘Ten!’ I succeeded but I assure you that I felt this blow for the rest of the match. I realized then that against a man like Langford, I should not discover that blow again and I used all of my knowledge to avoid it. In the fifteenth round, I was declared winner on points.

“In May of that year, I went to Gloucester (Mass.) and sent to the land of dreams Charlie Haghey with a few strokes. One-round was enough to prove to him and his friends that he had better choose another profession. Then I returned to Philadelphia, where I had a match of six-rounds, a no-decision, with Joe Jeannette. Jeannette was definitely my favorite opponent. We gave the spectacle of a beautiful encounter for the pious people of Portland (Maine), those ten rounds ended in a draw.”

This content is protected

” by

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

 

You just can't handle any form of even mild dissent or criticism of your hero , can you?
Anyone who points out glaring mistakes,anomalies, and contradictions is automatically a "hate monger".
Jack Johnson did not write that **** and Langford never dropped Johnson,Johnson floored him twice for 9 counts, cut his eye and broke his nose. I've read the primary reports .
You believe secondhand, retrospective, recycled comics because they suit your agenda, the canonisation of Joe Jeannette.


I'm not sure anger management would help you, I suspect a lengthy dose of reality recognition might be more beneficial.
I see you haven't addressed my points regarding the contradictions and innaccuracies in the posts you provided ,would that be because you can't?

My book of lies? Are you referring to Adam Pollack's masterful book on Jack Johnson?
You've blown your fuse , just as I predicted.

Calm yourself, put on some soothing music and peruse your Joe Jeannette s**** book, trace the photos with your fingers , you'll soon return to an equable frame of mind.

Deep breaths, have a nice day. :hi:

 

:hi: When asked of his thoughts on current champion Jack Dempsey, Johnson flashed his gold teeth smile and replied: “Jack Dempsey? He’s just a caretaker champion.”

Harrisburg Patriot July 23, 1921.

McVey your just a caretaker champion... Hate Monger :hi:

This content is protected

” by

This content is protected

This content is protected

 

I'm champion of nothing, I never won any titles in the ring or anywhere else, however I do have a built in BULL **** DETECTOR and its ringing loudly at the moment.

 

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

This content is protected

 

That is a three times translated from the French piece of garbage written by a hack , it contains more bull**** than your posts.

Have you read Adam's book or "Jack Johnson In The Ring And Out", how about Roberts's "Papa Jack?" Ward's "Unforgivable Blackness" Olsen's book, or Batchelor's? Do so, then come back and pretend you know what the **** you are talking about.

How about refuting any of my points? No ? I didn't think so.
I'll ask you ,as I've repeatedly asked Mendoza ,to provide ONE EXAMPLE of me lying .
Waiting.:think

A Mendoza clone.He a congenital liar and you a deluded hero-worshipper. Ahh Bless.