In hind sight, How should Frazier have fought Foreman?

Frazier was in rough shape at this point but he vastly improved upon the first fight by just fighting a little smarter.

I had Frazier winning rounds 1,2, and 4. 3 was close but Foreman edged it.

2 and 4 were clear Frazier rounds. Howard's commentary was favoring Foreman but I even recall him saying I think Fraizer won that round. I've argued Mcvey on this before.

This article had Frazier winning 2 and 4.

[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yn0xAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vaEFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4036,107947&dq=joe+frazier+george+foreman+closed+circuit&hl=en[/url]

 

A youthful Frazier not ravaged with arthritis proved he was capable of movement against Chuvalo, did it again against Stander right before Foreman I, and concluded his career with quick side-stepping in the draw with the physically powerful Jumbo Cummings, so Foreman II was not the only evidence he could do this against a physically stronger opponent.

Presume Ali never comes back from exile, and that Frazier never fractures his ankle as he did between Ellis I and Bob Foster. Foreman becomes his first substantial challenger.

Foreman I would be very difficult for Joe to win, just as Ingo I was for Patterson. Once George stuns and hurts Frazier by surprise, it would be extremely difficult for Smoke to clear his head quickly enough to withstand Foreman's follow-up attack and adapt. I expect George to win this one fairly quickly as he did in 1973, but this loss wouldn't take anything out of Joe, not being a war of attrition like the FOTC and Manila. (PLEASE do not forget that Foreman-Frazier II was AFTER Manila, yet Joe STILL lasted into round five without getting knocked off his feet.)

Smoke would come into a rematch at his peak undiminished in terms of abilities, highly motivated, possibly coming in under 200 pounds, where Peralta had twice showed one could compete with Foreman at that size. Meanwhile, after a relatively quick and easy upset win to take the title in their first match, the big guy may well come in dangerously overconfident.

Joe no longer had enough left to defeat George in 1976, and actually came in half a pound heavier than Foreman at 224-1/2, yet despite being around 25 pounds above his best and ravaged with arthritis so severe that he needed pain killing injections to train and compete, he moved surprisingly well, and remained on his feet longer than anybody else George stopped in the 1970s. He actually did puff up Foreman's right eye with his left hook in their rematch.

Knowing from their first bout what to expect, a still peak Frazier, Futch and Yank Durham in an early 1970s rematch would have likely studied Foreman-Peralta I & II, trained Joe down very possibly under 200 pounds, then brought out the Chuvalo playbook for extending George. As fast as Ali still was for the FOTC, Frazier had some success making Muhammad miss, and was much faster than Foreman.

Now, for their rematch, Smoke would evade and survive while conceding the early rounds, while closing George's right eye with his left hook. Now, each competitor only has vision in one eye as they pass the middle rounds. Foreman's offense was his defense. Joe would be very proactive on defense as usual with his cross arm and bob and weave, while he'd conversely be able to now have a chance to get his hook to the body as Jimmy Young was able to connect. (Even Ali went to George's body, something Muhammad actually was known to do with other taller upright opponents like Cleveland Williams, Terrell, Blue Lewis and Bugner. Blue Lewis was the only time body shots really carried Ali in a bout though, after Lew Eskin blew the call with a very long count after Muhammad's fifth round knockdown.)

If you accept that Jimmy Young was feigning distress at the outset of round seven in San Juan to make Foreman expend himself in a clever ruse (as I now believe he did), then the latest round the youthful George ever unloaded lethal power in was round five (the latest round he produced a KD in before his 1980s comeback).

We know from Kinshasa, the FOTC, Frazier-Mathis and Frazier-Bugner that if Smoke can drag this thing into double digit rounds (let alone the championship rounds), his hook would have more than enough late round power to get the job done on George, while Foreman may no longer have enough power to reciprocate by that stage of the rematch. I do think Joe may well have needed to win via stoppage after lasting this long because of the number of early rounds he'd conceded, but like Leotis against Liston, he pulls it off.

Because of George's power, it might not be very sensible to place money on this getting into the later rounds, but yeah, I'm absolutely convinced that this rematch between a still peak Frazier and young Foreman can get pulled off by Joe, setting the stage for a rubber match, or retirement by Frazier getting out with the title.


Could Ken Norton have ever defeated George Foreman? Not a chance. He never had the power or psychology to achieve this. Jerry Quarry's most brilliant moment as a television commentator was deconstructing Norton during Kenny's match with Larry Middleton, and it's an absolutely deadly dissection of a former opponent who was peaking at a moment when JQ was utterly shot. If you want to talk smoke and mirrors among 1970s heavyweights though, Ken Norton may have trumped Ali and Jimmy Young put together. Jerry's description of how deceptive Norton's punching power was, and why, is a monument to descriptive greatness, and he never should have left the CBS ringside microphone for a return to competition.

 

You have your point of view I have mine, and Cosell didn't influence mine btw.

ps Cosell didn't say Frazier won that round he said ,"that was Frazier's best round so far" not quite the same thing. Listen at
19 04min followed by "at ringside the feeling is that round was
even"
At 19.39 min
[url]http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=526391[/url]


. Being kind, I'll give Frazier a share of the 4th,I see now way anyone can give him any rounds prior to that and the ringside press appear to have agreed with me.
Straws clutching?:think

 

Frazier landed flush a couple of times in their seond fight , Foreman 's expression never changed .Frazier's power is over sold imo.

 

No, just giving my opinion. Are you clutching straws?

I don't think Cosell influenced you, I think you and him just had the same bias for Foreman. Fraizer was making him miss in bunches, clowning him at points, and had his eye closing from flush jabs and counter left hooks.

I could be wrong on Cosell's quote though, just remember him praising Frazier's 4th round. As far as ringside press, I've presented an article that tips Rounds 2 and 4 in Joe's favor.

At any rate, Frazier improved upon his performance despite being worse off physically. Something Patterson failed to do against Liston, Frazier made a case for himself.

 

It was just a stylistic nightmare match up for Smokin Joe... He`d have to get close with his 73 `` of reach,right into the danger zone. So Foreman`s jab and right cross is a problem. Then,even trying to bob and weave his way in ,now he has the uppercut to deal with ... Just never a good fight for Joe ...

 

He did hit Foreman with several clean left hooks in their actual fight, Foreman didnt even flinch and just walked right through them.

 

In hindsight? Well as long as we're using 20/20 vision, he shouldn't have fought him period. He should have pushed for the Ali, Ellis and Quarry rematches sooner and steered clear of him altogether.

 

This George would have knocked out Lyle sooner. George came into the Frazier fight in better shape and focus than he did for Lyle and for any fight after, for that matter. Also, George was rid of the ring rust that even he admitted to have at the beginning of '76.

 

This :deal

Although Foreman was still young, he was never the same mentally after Zaire.

The version that beat Frazier, Norton etc would demolish Lyle with ease.

 

I dont accept that as I have reada direct quote fromYoung that states he was so hurt in the seventh that " all George had to do was sneeze and I would have fallen down".
I'm absolutely convinced that Foreman beats Frazier like a drum 7 days a week and twice on Sundays.

 

I'd say Frazier made two major mistakes in this one. The first one was obviously not taking it seriously enough and preparing accordingly. The second was keeping on attacking Foreman when badly hurt. He should have tried to keep away and clear his head until he got at least some of his bearings back.

But seeing how extremely comfortable Foreman was trading with Frazier, I just can't see Frazier taking this. No matter how well prepared he was and how smart he fought.

 

No straw clutching here I'm convinced Foreman beat him like he was his Daddy.
I'm not a Foreman fan , I'm a fan of reality.
"You could be wrong on Cosell's quote ?"
No could be about it, you are, and I provided the fight and notated when he said the quotes I typed.

Couldn't you even be bothered to see if you were correct in your assertion?
That article you presented said nothing of the sort,it states that ,"in the second round he appeared to have an edge".

It doesn't state he won any other rounds at all.
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yn0xAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vaEFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4036,107947&dq=joe+frazier+george+foreman+closed+circuit&hl=en[/url]


By the way that is an AP report not a ringside one.
Disingenous on your part ?



I've presented a counter article that gives Foreman every round and the film evidence supports that opinion much more emphatically than your theory that Frazier won at least two rounds . Find a ringside reporter that agreed with you then comeback.

 

First fight, yes. I would not describe the second fight in such a way.

I can't view the video at the moment. I'll be sure to watch it when I can.

Wow, what would "Appear to have an edge" imply? That he won the round.

For the 4th round, they note "Frazier made Foreman miss badly, and landed well for himself, especially with a striaght left." So..does this sound like Foreman round?

What counter article?

I dont' care if ringside or watching it from a space station. I found an article that shares me and the other dude's observation.

 

I agree.