Greatest overall: Froch or Calzaghe

Better question would Joe have been undefeated if he fought some of the guys Froch did ?


Taylor in the states
Pascal
Dirrell
Ward in th states
Kessler twice

 

definitely not. Kessler was winning marginally up till his injury resurfaced, and ward in the states is another level above that.

Dirrell and Pascal would give him problems in neutral territory wth no ref to carry him back or call off the fight in case he got floored

 

atsch
How has Froch fought better opposition?
How has he accomplished more?

 

very true, only a fool would question that seriously.

 

Without a doubt in my mind.

Taylor was 1-2 when Froch fought him, had no SMW pedigree and was not able to compete successfully at the weight.
What has Dirrell done at SMW?
Ward has not beaten any top undefeated SMWs or any top prime SMWs
Kessler who Calzaghe beat when prime atsch

Many of Calzaghes opponents were more accomplished SMWs.

You have to look at who they fought and who did what in the division.
Not many know Calzaghe pre Lacy on here, but know Froch due to a competition.

Calzaghe has a far greater resume with SMW champs Eubank, Woodhall, Reid, Veit, Lacy, Brewer, Bika, Mitchell, Kessler beaten at SMW.

I rate that over Froch beating SMW champs Magee, Bute, Reid, Kessler, Abraham

When Froch beat Kessler he was very faded to the version that Calzaghe beat and the Reid, Froch fought was very faded.

also when you look at the SMW champs on Frochs list, 2 were beaten when prime by Calzaghe and one of the others was beaten by a Calzaghe victim before Froch faced them.

Then look at how Dirrell, Pascal, Taylor havent done anything of note at SMW
The faded, boiled down G Johnson beat was beaten when prime by Calzaghe victim Sheika which shows how the division wasnt watched previously but is more now.
Groves was of a similar level to Starie who Calzaghe beat.

Calzaghes resume is far greater

 

Agreed with out the help of a hometown ref he would lose ..

I could see Dirrell giving him fits and he could lose to Ward ..

Pascal would certainly give him problems .

 

Froch faced anyone and everyone in their prime, Joe did not.

Froch gets my vote everytime.

 

yes true. only a fail wouldn't see the problems they would cause joe without ref to stop the fight and hand him the win.


anyway what swings it for me is that joe was clearly more cowardzaghe that froch. though he was no coward of course. but almost all of joes first 19 defences (which is almost all of them in fact) sounds like a roll call of defences for an "international" title and not a world title. whereas frochs reads like a world champions resume...though joe did pick things up in his last 2 fights at smw.

 

:good

 

Exactly look at the road Froch has been on ..From AC to Monaco I mean the guy wasn't afraid to travel or test himself against the best when he was in his prime or when guys were in their prime Meanwhile Joe was content to spend his best yrs feasting on cans

 

Gneus7,

Of course it's not Joe's fault.

I always felt sorry for Joe.

Because he came along bang in the middle of two great eras.

He just missed out on Benn, Eubank, Watson and Collins era.

And he also just missed out on Froch and Ward era.

Now if Joe had've turned pro when Carl did, and he'd have fought all of Carl's opponents, at the same stage that Carl did, then he wouldn't have needed to have gone to LHW.

It would have been nice, but not necessary.

Good points.

Things worked out very well for him in the end.


But here's a few points to consider:

He did end up at LHW, which meant it wouldn't have been an issue earlier.

He'd have been made the number one contender with the WBO, had he moved up in 2003.

He claimed he chased Roy Jones for six years, who was at LHW.

In 2004, he said he wanted bigger fights, and he'd done all he could at SMW.

He said he could take his speed up, which would have given him a big advantage.

Again, he was an elite guy, and a big guy.

It was hard for him making SMW.


So all things considered, he could and should have moved up, when the Ottke fight couldn't be made.

Why struggle to make weight in a weak division, when the opportunity was there to fight in a stronger one?

The only things that prevented him, were either any injury concerns, or a lack of desire.

Frank W wanted him to go to the U.S. to build his profile.

He was suited.

If he hadn't have been suited, he'd never have gone up in 2008.

I respect your opinion.

But I have doubts.

Joe has such a huge ego.

I don't know if he'd have put himself in a situation where he didn't think the odds were stacked high in his favour.

Joe was a class act, and I'm not hating on him, but I have genuine doubts whether he'd have even entered the Super Six.

Would he have fought Ward in the U.S.?

Would he have fought a guy like Dirrell?

Would he have fought Kessler in Denmark?

Would he have chased Bute down afterwards?

How many southpaws did he fight?

These are genuine questions that I have.

I think that if he had've entered the Super Six, he'd have won it.

I think he'd have beaten Ward had they fought.

But I honestly have to question whether he'd have taken the fights.

Frank W said he was the most talented guy he ever worked with, but he didn't believe in himself as much as he should have done.

You can't say that you don't think Carl would have moved up, on the basis of, he hasn't.

Because again, he hasn't needed to in his own career.

But I think there's sufficient evidence to assume that he would have done had he been in Joe's position.

We know who he's fought, and where he's fought them.

He also called Joe out.

Now I understand perfectly why Joe didn't fight him, but had Joe have been wiling to fight him, Carl would definitely have taken it.

So all things considered, I find it hard to believe that Carl would have been content to fight the Salem's, Ashira's and Veit's of the world.

I think he'd definitely have moved up had he been in Joe's situation, unless there had've been genuine reasons why he couldn't have.


:good

 

I agree with most of what you've written.

Except that, I'm not sure how you can say he'd have beaten those guys without a doubt.

Andre Dirrell has done hardly anything after the Super Six. But that's not the point is it? Look at his style. I'm not saying that Joe couldn't have beaten him, but that's an interesting clash of styles. Also, how many good southpaws did Joe fight?

A fight with Andre Ward wouldn't have been a walk in the park either. Personally, I think Joe would have beaten him. But I wouldn't have said without a doubt.

Seriously, you've got to stop instantly dismissing guys, on the basis of - 'he hasn't fought any top, undefeated fighters etc.'

That doesn't mean anything.

That's just circumstances.

Those two fights would have been difficult for him.

 

I don't want to get involved in your argument with Herol, but the WBO was an outcast when Joe first won it.

It was a lightly regarded belt.

The Ring magazine didn't have ratings for it.

It wasn't needed to be the unified/undisputed champ.

After the Darrin Morris incident, it became an absolute laughing stock.

Respected boxing writers such as Thomas Hauser ridiculed it.

It has over time, gained recognition, and today it is an important title.

But back in the late 90's, there were the 'big three' then the WBO.

 

Possibly.

There's been some great fighters that have held it and fought for it.

But it was only formed in the late 80's.

It was never going to be as respected as the other three, especially the WBA and the WBC, that were formed in the early 60's.

There's no way that the fighters all viewed them as being on an equal footing.


:good