Ali is all wrong for Louis

Only fair to note that Conn was not fighting Louis on the outside.

Nobody really seems to get results against him on the outside.

The people who beat him, or take him to the brink, are all performing some sort of mid range wizardry.

 

That's just goes to show how bias can cloud anyone's judgement. Ali cleaned out his era as thoroughly as anyone.

 

Part of the problem with this thread, is that people assume that Louis fights Ali like he was Tony Musto, and that Ali fights Louis like he was an older Zora Folley.

Isn't it reasonably fair to say that we would probably see a bit of lateral thinking from both of them?

 

Yes. It would be a different mindset for both of them going in, assuming of course that they were meeting via time travel and knew each other as both being on elite level, rather than meeting in the same era as prospects of unknown status.

 

Yep.. A number of experts were asked by ring magazine around 1980 whom they felt the best lightweights of all time were. Duran made virtually none of their lists.

 

I guess that for the purposes of a fantasy fight, we assume a level playing field, hence they both know the deal.

Look at how Gene Tunney produced an anachronistic style for the Dempsey fights, or more recently, David Haye in the Valuev fight.

These guys might each think that the other is worth varying their game for!

 

But arcel actually saw dempsey box which few of us if any have done, you and I included.
All we have is the herky jerky film to judge from.
We don't see the subtleties and movements and skills of a true Dempsey.
Im sure ali, ray leonard, Floyd mayweather etc would have looked clumpy, slow and awkward if filmed with the technology of the 1920's.
Who knows how things go but calling ray arcel, one of the great trainers, who trained over 20 world champions a 'fanboy' shows arrogance. He had knowledge and direct experience of the issue in hand and whether we agree or not, such an opinion should be respected.

 

When looking at Arcel's opinion on Dempsey, people consider every potential position.

Except that he might actually have been right!

That is assumed to be false by default, and without looking at any evidence!

 

P, how dare you insinuate that a Ray Arcel, who was widely regarded by all boxing elites as one of the greatest trainers of all,
was worthy of as much respect as some of his neophyte naysayers on this forum ??? Shame on you...Some posters on ESB seem to think that boxing started after the advent of television...They should follow the saying of a Spanish philosopher who said wisely, "those who do not read history, are doomed to repeat it"..

 

:good

 

What was that you were writing just a while ago Burt? Something about being so terribly put off about someone trying to put another's opinion down and dismiss it outright, and how terrible that was? Now look at what you're writing here. Trying to actually put a "shame on you" on someone who very civilly and coherently put forth his own opinion. That's all he did, and in a non-combative way no less.

Apparently one's opinion is just fine for you Burt, as long as they see the same thing you do. It is YOU who should be ashamed.

 

The exact same thing can be said in reverse, Ali had hell with Frazier and Joe Louis could hit you with either hand and had a variety of hooks and right hands. Joe played the stalker but he was a talented athlete as well. Look at Cooper left hook, Frazier hooks,Doug Jones,Norton......Louis would be a serious problem for the very best of Ali and visa versa

 

Ray Arcel on Tyson vs Dempsey.. I want to point out that Arcel was approaching 90 years of age and had been retired from training fighters for several years when Tyson started impacting the heavyweight division. I have to question how closely he was following the scene by then and weather or not his faculties were still about him.. Claiming that Dempsey ( or anyone for that matter ) would dispose Mike Tyson inside of two rounds is truly a hell of a statement.

 

S, damn it ,I was PRAISING him
for his CORRECT ****ysis of the
THREAD. He was right on target
and I tried to use a little humor
on my answer, but it is you S
who failed to see the irony in my reply.
S, Everyone has a right to their opinion
for damn sure, but no one should be
tainted with the dismissive word BIAS
when some poster disagrees with him.

 

Pablod, I agree with your post above 100%. Right on target. But in my reply to you I tried to inject a little humor truly directed at
some posters who think they know more about boxing than a Ray Arcel,or great boxers who saw Dempsey in his prime, and
not some film of Dempsey cranked by hand cameramen that
makes everyone look like Charley Chaplin.. I can assure some of
Dempsey's ardent naysayers that my dad and his Dempsey generation WALKED, TALKED in the 1920s as they do now.
So P, your post was great, though Salsa didn't understand
my attempt at humor to you...:good