The Long Count is the biggest non-controversy in boxing history

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by klompton2, Dec 17, 2014.


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  1. crixus85

    crixus85 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    A young Dempsey took almost 20 knock downs to collectively despatch Willard, Carpentier and Firpo. In Willard's case, he kept getting up despite the free swinging old rule. None of these men compare to a prime Tunney. This seems to suggest that he would have survived any further attack, even if Jack 32, had observed the rules and gained the missing seconds he threw away.
    Would love to see the aforementioned unedited Dempsey-Firpo, where can it be viewed?
     
    crixus85, Dec 30, 2014
    crixus85, Dec 30, 2014
    #31
  2. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    I wanted to revisit this because I finally found the rules that governed both his fight with Firpo and the second Tunney fight. The rules for the Dempsey Firpo fight (which had been in effect since mid 1920, not 1921 as I had earlier stated) state clearly:

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    Dempsey was clearly in violation of the rules on multiple occasions against Firpo.

    On page 26 of the manual of rules of the Illinois State Athletic Commission, the set of rules by which Dempsey-Tunney 2 was governed, it states:

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    Now, at the rules meeting the day of the fight, when the pool of referees was selected a conference was had because it was realized that there was a conflict between these two specific rules. One saying the referee would cease the count and the other saying he would pick the count up from the timekeeper. It was specifically asked "what happens if a fighter fails to retire to a corner. It was decided that the referee was ultimate authority on the count and that the timekeeper was merely an "auxilliary" meaning that the referee could halt the count as he saw fit. This was agreed upon and attested to by the commission and supported later by the NBA.

    As you can see, Barry did nothing wrong and followed the rules to a "T" Dempsey had nobody but himself to blame and could have easily been DQ'd in the Firpo fight.

    I also have the rules used to govern the Dempsey-Willard bout in Toledo but I cant find them at the moment. Im curious to see if knockdowns were mentioned in them. I cant remember if they were or not but I think I would have remembered if they were.

    Its a shame Barry has been slandered for so long because he was actually a credit to the sport. The guy had been refereeing for almost twenty years when this fight took place and had refereed some important contests. He had boxed a bit in his youth and even met some well known fighters, after that he became a trainer and developed a lot of young fighters. When boxing was legalized in Illinois in 1926 after a quarter century drought he was the first referee to be licensed and by the time Dempsey fought Tunney a year later he had refereed over 40 contests and was considered the cities most experienced referee. He never got over the public's reaction to his handling of the Dempsey Tunney fight and always felt he had been treated unfairly. Even so he continued to train fighters and officiate contests. He would go on to train an amateur Barney Ross and Ross' CYO stablemate Nick Fosco the father of my friend and boxing film archivist Tony Fosco who always spoke highly of Barry.
     
    klompton2, Jan 12, 2015
    klompton2, Jan 12, 2015
    #32
  3. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I suspect the "controversy" was encouraged in the press in the first instance by the promoters and managers in hope that it would boost public demand for a very lucrative third fight.
    Dempsey lodged an official complaint but nothing was going to change the result.
    Most "controversies" like this get over-blown for the same purpose of building up a rematch.
    What happened, I think, is that Dempsey got second thoughts about a third fight with Tunney, and said he was retired.
    The "controversy" thus grew into a legend.
     
    Unforgiven, Jan 26, 2015
    Unforgiven, Jan 26, 2015
    #33
  4. Vince Voltage

    Vince Voltage Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Tunney and Douglas were both legit winners. They followed the ref's count which is the only one that mattered. Joe Walcott screwed up Ali-Liston and it should have been a NC. Ali should have been penalized for standing over Oscar Bonavena in the 15th round but got away with it (of course).
     
    Vince Voltage, Jan 26, 2015
    Vince Voltage, Jan 26, 2015
    #34
  5. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    How about ducking Wills ?
     
    he grant, Jan 27, 2015
    he grant, Jan 27, 2015
    #35
  6. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Careful, McGrain will close this thread down if it gets too "controversial"...
     
    klompton2, Jan 27, 2015
    klompton2, Jan 27, 2015
    #36
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Is that really necessary? I've closed down a grand total of one thread in four months and the one that I most recently closed featured an exchange of accusations of bigotry and, frankly, had strayed into the realm of the bizarre long before that. Implying that i'm trigger-happy is inaccurate and snide.

    You were asked specifically if you wanted to continue and you did not respond in the affirmative, but now appear to want to complain about a decision you actually had a hand in taking (not that it would have mattered in the end, but still).


    Finally, there is a thread dedicated to your complaints in Suggestions and Requests and there is a second one in Classic ("Moderation of the Classic Forum"). If you want to criticise, do it in the proper place.
     
    McGrain, Jan 27, 2015
    McGrain, Jan 27, 2015
    #37
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I've moved your post.

    Make posts of this nature in the proper place. I've taken the time to set up a thread specific to moderating issues, so please use it. Don't clog boxing threads with this ****.
     
    McGrain, Jan 27, 2015
    McGrain, Jan 27, 2015
    #38
  9. lora

    lora Fighting Zapata Full Member

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    Both these guys look ****e far more often than not.That seems more the bigger elephant in the room to me than anything.Nobody ever seems to want to address how stiff and basic Tunney was...he's supposed to be a master boxer of the era:lol:

    how anyone could watch either and consider them a great looking fighter is beyond me.Weak era tbh.Among the worst until the past decade or two.Quantity of fighters over quality.
     
    lora, Jan 27, 2015
    lora, Jan 27, 2015
    #39
  10. Webbiano

    Webbiano Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I thought The Long Count was just some guy that posted on this forum ... Who knew
     
    Webbiano, Jan 27, 2015
    Webbiano, Jan 27, 2015
    #40
  11. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Tunney may look stiff for but guess what, so do the Klitchkos. Look at what Tunney does, not how he looks. His ability to judge and control distance is as good as any fighter you will see. He clearly comes into every fight well prepared, well studied, and with a gameplan that he executes to perfection. I dont think Tunney was the greatest fighter ever, I dont even think he was the greatest boxer at the time, maybe not even in the HW division. Ive critcized the guy a lot for certain aspects of his career but its undeniable the guy could fight and was a dedicated, smart fighter. No doubt about it.
     
    klompton2, Jan 27, 2015
    klompton2, Jan 27, 2015
    #41
  12. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    I agree.

    People never mention that Tunney knocked Dempsey on his ass.

    Dempsey was huge, Babe Ruth type popularity. Once he was World Champ he didn't fight very often... he made the most of being the Champ. The build up was huge in those days via newspapers, radio, word of mouth.

    Dempsey beat Willard for the title in July of 1919, KO3, then took the rest of the year off. He fought twice in 1920, KO3 Brennan and KO12 Miske . He fought once in 1921, KO4 Carpentier. He did not fight in 1922. He fought twice in 1923, W15 Gibbons and KO2 Firpo. He did not fight in 1924 and 1925. He lost to Tunney in 1926 and 1927. In between the Tunney fights he struggled with Sharkey before stopping him, KO7, thanks to a low blow.

    Prior to winning the title Dempsey beat Gunboat Smith KO2 and W4, Carl Morris KO1, WDQ6, and W4, Billy Miske W6 and D10, and Battling Levinsky KO3 among others.

    He lost to Willie Meehan in 1918, L4. He went 1-2-2 in 5 fights vs. Willie Meehan lifetime, they were all 4 rounders.

    He also beat Fred Fulton KO1, Bill Brennan KO6, Fireman Jim Flynn KO1 (he was also stopped in 1 round by Flynn one year earlier), Homer Smith KO1, and others.

    Dempsey was great in his day but he was too small and crude to make my HW all-time top 10 list.
     
    Hookie, Jan 27, 2015
    Hookie, Jan 27, 2015
    #42
  13. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    Tunney was an excellent fighter despite how he may or may not have looked on film.

    He beat Dempsey twice and even dropped him once. He also beat Tom Heeney KO11, Johnny Risko W12, and Tommy Gibbons KO12. He went 3-1-1 vs. Harry Greb (the only man with a win over Greb). He drew with Tommy Loughran. He also beat Battling Levinsky and Leo Houk among others.

    He is one of only 3 Lineal HW Champs who were never stopped...Marciano and Bowe are the others.
     
    Hookie, Jan 27, 2015
    Hookie, Jan 27, 2015
    #43
  14. Chuck1052

    Chuck1052 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Tunney had a stiff boxing style? That was not my impression while watching a tape of his first bout with Jack Dempsey. It may be that he tended to box by the book and had a "safety-first" style, but I was surprised that he threw more punches per round than many other heavyweights. Of course, Tunney was fighting someone who was known for being very aggressive in the bout, so it may have been a different story when he was fighting another "safety-first" fighter.

    Throughout the bout, Tunney threw quite a few combinations and punched to both the head and body. It was a dominating performance for him from start to finish, so much so that I was wondering if such a bout would have been stopped by a referee in this day and age.

    - Chuck Johnston
     
    Chuck1052, Jan 27, 2015
    Chuck1052, Jan 27, 2015
    #44
  15. lora

    lora Fighting Zapata Full Member

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    Stiff is the wrong word to emphasis i guess as it doesn't necessarily relate directly to quality, though it epitomises his aesthetic, but it's more the fact he just doesn't seem very impressive overall to me.

    Simplistic, much more so than his reputation would suggest.Definitely one of my biggest disappointments since i started following boxing.Dempsey i never really expected to impress that much, so that was different.
     
    lora, Jan 28, 2015
    lora, Jan 28, 2015
    #45
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