Ten rounds of Jeffries vs Johnson as scored by the life and battles of Jack Johnson

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, Feb 4, 2015.


  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    THE BATTLE BY ROUNDS. taken from the LIFE AND BATTLES OF JACK JOHNSON. Page 67 I'm not going to correct all of the spelling mistkes, but you can judge for yourself if the fight was close until round ten

    First Round—Jeff walked in and Johnson gave
    ground. Jolinson led a straight left. Then a clincli followed. Jelf hooked a left on tlie ueok and in the clinch sent a left to the body. Johnson responded Avitli a left and they continued to stand breast to breast,trying for inside blows. As they broke Jeff sent a left to Johnson's neck and crossed to the body. The round was tame. As they turned to their corners, Jeff tapped
    Johnson on the shoulder and smiled.

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    Second Round—Jeff assumed liis crouch, but missed
    his first attempt. Jack forced the pace and Jeff stepped
    nimbly away. Jack sent a left to Jeff's face, and as they clinched ripped a hard uppercut to Jeffs chin. They held together and were unwilling to give each
    other any chance. Jeff sent a right to the rilis and
    took a left on the face at close quarters. Jeff' crouched
    and waited for Johnson, but he was not willing. They came together without a blow and Johnson tried his uppercut but missed. Jeff put a right on Jack's shoulder and pushed him about. AVhen they broke
    Jack shot his left hard to Jeffs face and tried his up- percut but missed again. Then there was a lot of wrestling and not much fighting. The gong rang with- out a good blow having been struck.

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    Third Round—Jolmson fell into a short left to the stomach. Tliey clinched. Jack dashed a left to the nose and they clinched again. Johnson missed with
    right and left uppercuts and then Johnson tried a vicious right to the head, but Jeffries ducked and
    clinched. Johnson was very cautious in tiie break- aways. Johnson sent two liglit rights to tlu' liead and
    liiey clinched. At the bell Jellrics s<'nt a light left to the head. Tne round was even.

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    Fourth Round&#8212;Johnson sent a left to the head. Jeffries
    blocked Jack's right to tlie same place anil aclinch followed. Jeffries sent three hard rights to the stomach. Johnson put a left to the head. Johnson's nose Avas bleeding. Jeffries goes into a clinch. Jolin- son sends a right to the kidneys. In the clinch he sent
    a straight left to the head and then took one in return. They clinched. Johnson held in the clinches. Johnson
    Avent against the ropes and took three jabs to the stomach. The crowd Avent Avild at Jeffries' shoAving.
    Atthe break Johnson sent a right to the ear, without
    damage. Jeffries had a shade the better of this round.

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    How anyone could say Jeffries was licked after he was slightly the better in the 1st and won the forth with the 2nd and 3rd being even. N0t the same guys for sure, but beaten this early?

    Fifth Round&#8212;They sparred and Johnson kept talk- ing to Jeffries. He kids Jim in the clinches. Jeffries rushed in Avith left to the ribs. Then a clinch. John- son sent a long left to the stomach, but did no damage.
    Jack Avorked a left uppercut to jaw, and Jim's mouth
    was slightly cut. He dashed in and sent two lefts to face. They sparred and Johnson backed away. He
    appeared to be very cautious and played on the defensive.
    Jeffries sent a straight left to mouth, and an- other to the nose, increasing the floAV of claret from
    that organ. They Avere clinched at the bell. round
    even.

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    Sixth Round&#8212;The pace was slow up to this time with- out doing much damage to the men. Johnson shot a left to Jeff's face and closed Jeff's right eye.. Jack missed two rights. Jeff's nose was bleeding when the gong rang. When Jeff took his seat his seconds got busy Avith bis eye, but Jeff told them that it Avas O. K. It Avas Jolmsou's round.

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    Seventh Round&#8212;Jeff walked right in. Jack led right and left and missed. Jefif's eye was badly swollen and be rubbed it with bis glove. He feinted about and tried to draw Johnson on, but the negro declined to eome in. Jeff stepped in with left to body, but missed it and took a left on the head. Jeff hooked a left to the jaw. Johnson
    sent in lefls to Ihe face. Jeff pulled his way into another
    clinch, but failed to land. He drew Jack into a lead and
    shot a left to tiie face. In a close quarter mi.x;;p Jack
    sent his left to the face.

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    Eighth Round&#8212;Thej' sparred at the opening and Johnson
    feinted. They rushed into a clinch and Jack hooked
    to the ear with a left. Johnson scut two rights to the head and repeated a moment later. Johnson 'blocked
    beautifully. In a half clinch Jeffries pounded the stomach.
    Jeffries ducked a left and took a right on chest. They clinched again. Johnson sent a left to the stomach. Johnson held in the clinciies and referee breaks them. Johnson forced a clinch, hanmieiing the kidneys. Johnson
    tried a terrific right hook to the jaw but missed. Johnson sent a h'fc to the head. Jeffries dashed in with
    a right, but it was blocked. They clinched and Jack
    tried rijiht to head, but was short. They were clinched
    at the bell. Johnsons round by a slight margin.

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    Ninth Roimd&#8212;Jeff stood up and walked into a left to the chest. "Make him fight," yelled C'orbett. "Never
    mind, just wait," said Johnson. Johnson walked in and
    tried left for body. Jeff got inside of it and put his head
    against Jack's chest and shoved the black fellow back to the ropes. Jeff took it all in calmly and seemed to be
    waiting the opportunity to land a good one. Jeff walkedinto two left jabs on the face. They did no damage. His
    wrist landed hard on the ribs and Johnson did not appear
    to like it. It was Jeff's round.

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    Tenth Round&#8212;They came up slowly. Jack shot a left to the face, but Jeff brushed it away and responded with
    a left to the body. Jack again missed a lightning right
    to the jaw. Jeflf put his shoulder against Johnson's body
    and shoved him back. At close range Johnson sent a left uppercut to Jiff's face. Jeflf got under a left lead and
    seemed to want to wear Jack out by bearing his weight
    and shoving him. Jeff struck out two lefts to face from
    a clinch and got one of the same kind. Jeff took two
    lefts on the face when they broke. He stepped in quickly
    and shot a left to the body as gong rang.

    Even round.

    >>>Summary I have it 3-3 with 4 rounds even after 10 rounds on THIS SOURCE. I am not going to debate others sources in this thread, just showing why I think the fight could have been ruled a draw when you consider the times based on this book.


    [url]https://knowledgecenter.unr.edu/digital_collections/exhibits/johnson_jeffries/documents/lifebattlesofjac00foxr.pdf[/url]
     
  2. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Have fun on your own.:lol:
     
  3. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    I would not expect you to objectively watch the surviving rounds. As we know you are gun shy to score older footage.

    I will however welcome film shown here on rounds 1-10 to review or score, or comments from this book's accounts of the rounds.
     
  4. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    you just don't learn... We have vastly more sources that say the complete opposite of it being a close fight after 10... Nobody said their wouldn't be ANY conflicting sources, there always is, what we are saying is that it's better to go with the majority of primary sources than a few odd ball ones.
     
  5. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Out of curiosity which rounds if any have you seen? Its a slow fight, and pretty much even in the footage show prior to round 11.

    If the other round by round sources spell out that Johnson won 8 of the 10 first rounds, then it was not close in the first 10 rounds. I have not seen that, more like Johnson won about 4-5 of the first ten rounds, with a least two going to Jeffries and some even.
     
  6. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The point is, which is better to go by... The majority of sources or a much small minority of them?
     
  7. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Counter point. The filmed rounds mean a lot. What is shown doesn't indicate an early blow out. Far from it. That is my point. It was close enough up to the 10th round. The source here is Richard K Fox, who was an authority and ran the Police Gazette.

    Use other sources that list a round by round Most will show the first ten rounds with Jeffries winning two, and some being even. As such you might want to consider the first ten rounds being close enough.
     
  8. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    It was a poor fight as fights go, this less than fifteen-round affair between James J. Jeffries and Jack Johnson. Scarcely ever has there been a championship contest that was so one-sided.
    All of Jeffries's much-vaunted condition and the prodigious preparations that he went through availed him nothing. he wasn't in it from the first bell tap to last, and as he fell bleeding, bruised weakened in the twenty-seventh second of the third minute of the fifteenth round no sorrier sight has ever gone to make pugilistic history." John L Sullivan ringside.
     
  9. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Its pointless. I literally got tired of weeding through all of the first hand accounts which characterized this fight as a ridiculously one sided mismatch. The press coverage for this fight was unparalleled for the era so its easy to find people who were ringside and Id guess a good 9 out of 10 if not more wrote about how one sided it was.

    Whats the point in arguing with a guy who thought Jeffries fought evenly over the early rounds, Burns broke Johnson's ribs, Ketchel dropped Johnson legitimately and visibly bruised him, and the Moran fight could have gone either way. The guy takes all of these fight films of which not even half of any of these fights exist and then watches them looking for any grain of success someone might have against Johnson, real or imagines, and then in his own mind blows that so far out of proportion that its beyond belief. There isnt any point in debating with someone like that.
     
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    You are right, think its time to ignore Rainman Mendoza:good
     
  11. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    And take all the fun out of everything!?
     
  12. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    i dont really want to get involved in a debate on this at this time, but Mendoza does have a bit of a point.

    Many of the quotes Klompton raised, are not mentioned in the context of Jack Johnson winning every round under modern scoring conditions, which imo causes a lot of the difficulty here. They certainly are not round by round quotes. Round by rounds all gave Jeffries at least one or two rounds and some even.

    This was a fight, and it is nothing more than pure imagination to think that Jeffries didnt land a punch as some seem to think (i know McVey Klompton arent saying this, but others often do seem to think it). In the first 10 rounds, Jeffries was more competive than Ali was against Holmes, Dempsey was against Tunney (for all bar the long count round), Jackson against Jeffries, Tyson against Lewis etc.

    there is no doubt that Jeffries landed some good shots. In fact, there is a pretty good article floating around where Johnson views the film footage (which was reasonably novel in those days) and explains the couple of blows which made him wince in pain. Interestingly, a big deal was made of some of the blows which looked bad on film not hurting him and some glancing type blows doing some real damage. In reality, we will never know which is which and Johnson suggests the tape is quite misleading.

    Saying that, whether the fight was close or not is irrelevant. As Klomptons quote prove, Johnson was never going to win at any point in time and he outclassed Jeffries from the bell. In fact, some say he had it won before the bell. That much is not debateable. Yes Jeffries might have had some close rounds and even technically won one or two rounds, but he was still being outclassed and was never in danger of losing.

    If the fight was stopped cold after 10 rounds well yes that was a different story. It always makes me laugh how certain people are that Johnson would have got the decision. Yet many of the same people will tell us how racist the times were, that it was only race that caused Johnson to lose to hart, that the people involved in boxing were the most racist around etc.

    In my opinion (admittedly not certain), if the fight was scheduled for 10 rounds, the fight would have been called a draw and probably fairly. Johnson would have claimed the fight and unfair treatment, while Jeffries and his supporters would have insisted that his record was proof that he could overcome adversity and that he would have knocked out Johnson in time. I think it would have also made Jeffries the no 1 fighter of all time and i would have been ****ping on now about how he was unbeatable but that is another story.

    The other thing to consider is that Johnson was so that realistically, if the fight was only scheduled for 10, he may very well have risen to the occassion and stopped Jeffries. I certainly wouldnt be game enough to bet against this happening.
     
  13. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Again nobody is saying there isn't a source saying it was a close fight... there are always some odd ball sources out there. My question still stands... Which is better to go by?
     
  14. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    You are ****ing high.
     
  15. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    :lol: maybe, perhaps fairly wasnt the best word. Maybe i should have said I think it would have been a no decision fight and it would have given many who watched the fight a completely different perspective.

    Interestingly, most of the debate would have probably centred on whether jeffries or johnson was the champion adn whether or not the champion could or should lose his fight if he was not knocked out. I think that Jeffries supporters would have argued that he could not lose his title unless he was knocked out and for these times, i think that this argument could have held water, particularly given his late rallying record.