Resumes that begin to fall apart under a microscope

I know this is classic forum but I don't watch boxing much anymore, why is Ward MIA and only fighting once a year since 2011.

 

He was embroiled for a long while in litigious action with his promoter Dan Goossen, who passed away last year. (but not before defeating Ward at least twice in the courtroom)

Now he is disentangling himself from that contract (or has done, via who knows how costly a settlement) and has linked up with fledgling Roc Nation Sports, headed by rap mogul Jay-Z.

 

Bernard Hopkins. Never really beat anyone particularly good who was at their best.

 

Jean Pascal? Felix Trinidad, undefeated? Glen Johnson, undefeated?

Hard to find much fault with those, IMO.

 

Joking aren't you? He didn't even have a set of basic fundamentals about him. An inexperienced, as-always-messy Carl Froch beat him clearly without a jab!

 

Joking, surely?

Trinidad was grossly undersized. It was like a flat-footed lightweight against a crafty light-heavyweight!

Glen Johnson was poor, limited. He even lost to Omar Sheika!

 

Oh, I see. You're this.

Pascal doesn't have a conventional approach, no, but that hardly makes him unskilled. Neither did his idol (and now trainer), RJJ.

As for using the Froch war as though it were a knock on Pascal somehow - that was a close, FOTY candidate, and Froch was on the cusp of entering the S6, already ranked in the top 5-10 at 168lbs, and had recently had been scheduled for a world title eliminator with Inkin after cleaning house domestically and somewhat on the Euro scene, before Inkin pulled out and was replaced by Rybacki. Froch had already fought the likes of Reid and Magee by this point, was a six year pro, and can hardly be called green at 23-0 with several defenses each of the Commonwealth and British title (becoming Lonsdale outright champ when he knocked out Tony Dodson)

 

Undersized, but had just moved up to capture a middleweight title by KO? ...and had always been a massive welter? Interesting.

Johnson poor and limited? In 1997, at 32-0? As proof of which you cite his loss to Sheika in 2000 (by MD, which most consider a robbery) itself four years before he posted consecutive victories over Jones & Tarver?

 

:shock: I'm out of my depth! (as Klompy likes to say...better stick to my newfangled modern boxing scene & RBR's...)

 

Froch isn't particularly good. Let's be realistic. Taylor and Dirrell won 8 or 9 rounds each and they weren't close rounds, and Ward won pretty much every minute of every round. Groves smoked him in their first fight, winning most minutes of most rounds dominantly, too. He still went life-and-death with a faded Groves and shot Kessler in the rematches against these mediocre operators. He even struggled with a near-fifty year old Johnson, arguably a draw was that match - Glencoffe couldn't miss him with the right hand.

Hopkins is looked upon as a super-master, super-legend, greatest ever kind of guy... it stinks. It's nonsense. He's feasted on blown-up lightweights, 40+year olds and poor hypejobs once a year for 15 years now, winning some, losing others. He's not all that. He never went out of his way at 160 to risk matches with Reggie Johnson or Julian Jackson or Lonnie Bradley, Harry Simon etc.

 

I watched this guy struggle with Clinton Woods three times! He wasn't very good. Weren't Jones and Tarver about 45 at the time?

 

Keyboard warriors need to understand that boxing is a sport with a lot of uncertainty. Fighters that are, on paper, extremely skillful and well trained, can be taken out or down by relatively untalented novices. At a certain level everyone is a dangerous opponent. And to further that complication, the prime runs of most boxers are extremely limited. That is where management comes in, to mitigate the risk and maximize the reward.

So, very few resumes that have longevity and consistency over years "fall apart" under the microscope. They mostly fall apart at the hands of idiots.

 

Froch is top five all time at his weight (granted, youngish division).

Taylor was indeed well ahead when stopped in the final minute, but stopped he was. (as was another chap named Taylor, while up on the cards, at the last possible second, 19 years earlier :deal - and Froch KO12 J. Taylor is no less valid than Chavez TKO12 M. Taylor)

Dirrell won 8 or 9 rounds that weren't close? Okay, no. That's just wrong.

Groves smoked him in the first fight and won every minute until he was stopped? Also fiction.

Groves is faded by the rematch!! Ho-ho! That didn't take long. I've heard of short primes, but a few months?

Kessler wasn't shot in either of their encounters. He was past his athletic peak yes but was tactically a better fighter in both fights with Froch than he was in his prime. Jimmy Montoya in his corner more than compensated for the loss of some of his speed and sharpness.

As for struggling with an old Johnson, well, you clearly view that as the nail in the coffin if you think Glen was "poor and limited" and never any good any time in his long career. We can agree to disagree there. On the other hand, Bute dominated Johnson by comparison - and Froch destroyed Bute. Sometimes it really does boil down to "styles make fights". :good

Hopkins is looked upon as having incredible longevity (he did, that's a black and white fact, inarguable) with much of it at the championship level (also fact) against men that were routinely bigger, younger, physically stronger, often faster (all facts) and yet consistently found a way to win (fact) more often than not using his brains and his conditioning, which far exceeds that of athletes half of his age (slightly editorialized perhaps - but look at him. Close enough to fact. Any twenty-something athlete would kill to be as sculpted or have as much stamina as Hopkins at the doorstep of 50)

Blown-up lightweights? You seem a bit confused and not the most reliable source as far as what constitutes a blown-up lightweight. For instance, you called Tito one. Moving on...

40+ year olds? When did Hopkins fight anyone older than himself? :huh

Poor hype jobs? You mean like then-reigning-unbeaten-lineal-middleweight-champ Pavlik? Or any of the world titlists Hopkins dismantled far beyond the age most are capable of competing, period?

Reggie Johnson or Julian Jackson or Lonnie Bradley, Harry Simon - quite a murderer's row you've assembled. Let's take a look at this rogue's gallery.

Reggie Johnson. Ha. Good fighter and everything, but we both know that if your object here was to rip asunder Jones instead of Hopkins you would throw Reggie under the bus first thing as exemplary of Jones' "weak competition". (I've seen it done!)

Julian Jackson. Um. When exactly was Hopkins supposed to pursue this? By the start of his IBF reign (mid-1995), the Hawk was coming off a KO loss to Quincy Taylor defending the WBC. He then went approximately nowhere and did a fat lot of nothing for the remainder of his career. Had they fought, you'd just complain that Hopkins beat him way past his prime anyway.

Lonnie Bradley. Okay. Ignoring the fact that in the mid-90s the WBO title wasn't yet taken the least bit seriously (and Bradley acquired his from a guy that was 13-6...) - a window of what, two years existed between the start of their overlap as titlists and Bradley's career-ending vision impairment? Which of Bradley's legendary defenses made him a viable opponent for Hopkins or made unification seem remotely necessary, while Hopkins was cleaning out the division of better contenders? :think

Harry Simon. Intriguing. Debuted just a year before Hopkins' reign started, cut his teeth at 154lb, and didn't move up to middleweight until mid-2001. He was a sensible opponent, but the much greater Felix Trinidad, who also had just moved up to win a title in his middleweight debut (and the WBA, not the lightly regarded WBO) is to be dismissed as just as "blown up lightweight"?

 

...I think you just replaced my old disclaimer.

 

Reggie J was a far better fighter in the early to mid 90s at 160 before his speed and sharpness faded than what Jones fought. He beat Toney in my view, and a better fighter than Hopkins at the time in Lamar Parks.