By 2025 what will an ATG heavyweight list look like??

Why do you think Frazier will go down? His generally high placement seems to be based in good part upon his great victory over a close to peak Ali, who's rating, we agree, will not be altered?

I expect anyone pre-Louis only to move down by exactly the number of great fighters that emerge to be placed above them. Why are you so sure that Johnson's reputation will suffer? What new information is coming to light that will make the general public and historians to demote him?

I think Holmes could move UP as fighter's failing to take on top contenders becomes more normal, but this might take longer than the stipulated time.

 

And generally worse. The only truely great, and I mean GREAT, modern, huge big heavy is Lewis. That's it. And there have been plenty. I, personally, expect that trend to continue. There will be extraordinary individuals, of course, like Lewis, and in the class below, like your man, but they are to big to employ proper footwork, balance and almost as crucially, to be able to come in slightly out of shape and still do well.

I don't expect the heavyweight divisions "great" list to be dominated by men of Lewis' size until the end of the century, if it happens at all.

1-4, yes, but how are these things to be weiged? In my opinion Frazier holds the greatest win in the history of the division. I weigh that very, very heavily.

How many fighters under 6' do you have on in your top 15 HW list full stop? Proving that Frazier is close to unique hardly warrents reason for his exclusion. If no other fighter of his size and shape reproduced his performances and acheivments, this would have absolutley zero bearing upon my rating of Joe Frazier. It is not relevant in any way.

If a "fondness of smaller heavyweights" can be shown to influence a man's opinion of a given fighter, i'll be happy to throw that testimony out. Similairly, the reverse should be true.

Why?! Why, though? Why, when this has not happened in the past 100 years will it happen in the next 17?

Good god damn I hope not.

 

I won't say this is ridiculous, but I will say that I don't agree.

Sure, but Ali, Louis, Liston, Frazier, Tyson, Lewis and Holmes would be my picks as the best ever. Of those, one, Lewis, is what we might call a "super-heavy". The others are smaller men. I don't imagine this will change as time goes on. I just don't think that MASSIVE men are ever going to make top .05% of top fighters at this weight.

Recently, yes. But the division has been weak, which means an equaliser, like size, can become a serious factor. Of the fighters capmaining NOW, the guys who have a chance of overhauling the Klitchko's all time status are Povetkin and Chagaev. Smaller guys. More mobile guys.

Again, how do we weight these statistics? 0-2 v Foreman is not satisfying and I don't think many all time greats would have suffered this ignomy. As to Frazier's series with Ali, I don't know that anyone other than perhaps Louis would have taken one from him, in my opinion.

Me too, but the question was rhetorical. My point is that size is only an issue if the fighter in question fails to overcome it. Men like these always will. In addition they will have other advantages, exceptional mobility (relative), speed and the ability to come in carrying excess weight without dropping off as dramatically in terms of stamina (see Lewis in Raman I).

It seems very, very unlikely to me. Johnson has been rated highly from the day he lifted the title until 2008. It seems really unlikley to me that these fresh eyes you imagine will damage his reputation seriously between now and '25, though we will see.

Yeah.