Muhammad Ali is the Father of Boxing

Are you going to claim that either one of those 2 countries had the same expansionist policies as Nazi Germany? Furthermore, who has invaded more countries SINCE the second world war, China, Russia, or the US?

 

since russia occupied about half of europe for 30+ years following the end of the war that statement is a bit off, america and britain didn't keep western europe as their own teritory once ze nazis were gone.

 

Firstly. Stalin wanted to enslave the German people for the destruction the Nazi's caused to Russia, until every single building was rebuilt. It was Churchill, and Eisenhower who talked him out of it by giving him East of the Berlin wall, and the countries that fought with the Germans against him. Hungary in 1956 ( or whenever ) is a fair shout.

As I said how many countries have Britain and the US invaded since WW2, compared to both Russia, and China?

Secondly this tells me a little bit more about Vietnam than chest thumping jingoism.

Beginning in 1950, American military advisors arrived in what was then French Indochina. U.S. involvement escalated in the early 1960s, with troop levels tripling in 1961 and again in 1962. U.S. involvement escalated further following the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident, in which a U.S. destroyer clashed with North Vietnamese fast attack craft, which was followed by the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which gave the U.S. president authorization to increase U.S. military presence.

Authorization from the US congress, not from any country in South East Asia.

Now if you are telling me that Moscow was trying to become a major influence that area of the world, whilst trying to contain uprisings and other internal problems in Eastern Europe, then I'd say one of us was an idiot, and I don't think it would be me.

 

Well, Russia held the whole of Eastern Europe except the Balkans under continuos occupation really for another 45 years and of course occupied Afghanistan until they were thrown out. And since the collapse of the Soviet Union they've invaded Transnitria (formerly a part of Moldavia, I think), N'Gorno Karabach (formerly a part of Azerbadjan, I think), South Ossetia (formerly a part of Georgia) and of course Chrimea and eastern Ukraine. And then it depends on how you count Chechnya.

To counter that the US have Afghanistan and Iraq. Apart from that they've helped instigate several coups and supported militias and the like, but in terms of outright occupation it's those two I can come and think of. Grenada? Wasn't really an occupation was it?

Anyhow, Russia's record in terms of occupations since 1945 ****s all over USA:s any way you slice it really.

Communist China was mostly busy killing its own population (The Great Leap, The Cultural Revolution etc) for the first 30 years of its existence and have had its focus on rebuilding what was left (under stern oppression) during the close to four decades since.

In terms of foreign aggression, China sent troops and weapons to the Korean war and also supported North Vietnam during the Vietnam war. Later on they actually attacked Vietnam themselves, I think, but lost.

 

what?

I'm an idiot yet you can't read one sentence? where did i say anything about vietnam, or that moscow was trying to become a major influence..ect. you felt to insult me so quote where i said any of that and i'll admit i'm the idiot, if you can't then it's clearly you.

i don't care about politics or nationalism, they bring out the worst in people, as you are well demonstrating. my opinion is that america, and particularly britain(my country), have shameful pasts visa vi attacking other countries, and that ussr and china have shameful history of killing millions of their own people, as often deliberatly as through incompetence, so everyone being discussed here sucks to me.

 

I found this well researched, highly accurate documentary on America's deliverance of Southeast Asia from the brutal grip of communism on line… I suggest you study it…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH9tHBg_Hnw

 

Good call.

 

The emotions are so jumbled, so mixed when I watch this.

I have a full, patriotic erection...tears in my eyes and a lump in my throat...

The courage...The Duke...The Naplam...

Thank you, Seamus, for bringing us back to those simpler, uncomplicated days when we knew what was right and moral.


Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio...?

 

Where you, and indeed Bokaj are getting things wrong is the very thing you accuse me of. I said who have Russia or China INVADED since the second world war in comparison to Britain and the US?

You have come back with OCCUPATIONS ( by Russia ) that were worked out around a table between Stalin, Churchill, and Eisenhower.

Russia suffered more damage, and casualties than any other country during WW2. Some of the countries Hitler originally occupied without firing any bullets more or less, joined his forces to fight against the Russians. Stalin didn't forgive or forget that. Hence the deal that Eastern Europe would become his to do as he liked with

Now as far as I know he sent tanks into Hungary in the 50's. Russia invaded Afghanistan in the 80's, and Putin's little skirmishes in Ukraine don't really count as Russia is no longer hard line communist is it?

So lets see who have Britain and the US INVADED since WW2?


Like you I also despise the hypocrisy of politics, and nationalism. Someone mentioned chemical weapons in this thread, ( Saddam, Kurds, Iraq ) so are they wrong per se, or only if someone with a different ideology uses them?

Only the words NAPALM, and VIETNAM spring to mind.

 

Already answered "...Afghanistan until they were thrown out. And since the collapse of the Soviet Union they've invaded Transnitria (formerly a part of Moldavia, I think), N'Gorno Karabach (formerly a part of Azerbadjan, I think), South Ossetia (formerly a part of Georgia) and of course Chrimea and eastern Ukraine. And then it depends on how you count Chechnya."

Also, the Soviet Union sending troops to crush popular uprisings in Hungary 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968 surely has to be seen as invasions to anyone who doesn't have a clear agenda.

Against this the US have the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq as well as attacking (but never invading) North Vietnam and Cambodia. Great Britain participated in the invasions of Afganistan and Iraq and there was the failed attempt during the Suez Crisis, but nothing major by their own initiative that I can come to think of.

 

Same here, but I think what really set the government off on Ali was that he was this African-American champion defying what they wanted him to believe.

 

Russia has indeed been a frequent user of gunboat diplomacy, but most of the examples you bring up were minor operations that can not compare with the massive full scale invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. A more fair comparision would to put them against US military interventions overseas. Then you have of the top of my head:

Lebanon in 58
Dominican republic 65
Iran 88
Panama 89
Haiti 94

Add to these all times the US has been indirectly involved through the CIA or/and by providing arms and training to insurgents and list grows longer.

It could be argued that alot of these interventions were made in defence of democracy or to prevent war crimes but none were under UN flag, and remember that the russians justifies their interventions the exact same way (however ridiculues their excuses seem to us).

 

Yeah, it's a fine line what constitutes invasion. But in the cases I named for Russia (N'Gorno Karabach, South Ossetia etc), while the expeditions weren't major they've kept troops there to retain control. Don't think that was the case in most of the examples you listed (and certainly in can't be argued they invaded Iran in 1988).

 

True. I now remember that after entering Iraq, the U.S military kept finding remains of mobile bio chemical factories all over the place and ones that had just recently been packed up and moved at that. In addition, Bush kept giving Huessein deadlines to permit our inspection and continued to push them back. Not sure what Sadaam was doing but I doubt he was redecorating for our arrival.

 

If someone is supposed to be a "communist" simply because they disagree with the government's view on a particular issue, then I guess our founding fathers were communists too. Because the very basis of democracy is the right of the people to choose what they feel is right and wrong. That's how our government was designed. Sorry, but as an American I don't feel very compelled to support our government EVERY time it decides to go to war or make a new law, or raise or lower taxes. I am neither pure liberal nor pure conservative, and frankly I think that's how most Americans are if we're honest. I believe that very few are far right or far left. Only someone with a childish mind is naive enough to think the world is that black or white with nothing in between.