Muhammad Ali's phantom/anchor punch

What a strange post! What criticism? I'm making an observation and giving an opinion on what I saw.
How's it childish? Some Ali fans think he could walk on water,while others hate his guts, all i'm stressing is that in spite of loving the man there's no way in my opinion that he knocks out a granite jawed heavyweight like Sonny Liston with that punch.
I'm still searching for any criticism of anyone in my original post!

 

Actually, the were similar to the punch used against Liston. In all cases, Ali was moving backward, and in call cases he catches his foe reaching in.

Liston had also been dropped with a shot to the temple agianst Marty Marshall, who wasn't a big puncher by any means. So there was certainly precedent for Liston getting caught and hurt by a punch he didn't see.

 

Have to disagree. The Folley punch was a downward chopping right hand,some of the punches he dropped Williams with were simply overhand rights.
With the "phantom punch" Ali's right hand was thrown from virtually his waist.In fairness Liston was coming on to it. It's all opinion but to me there's no way that punch knocks out Sonny Liston.

 

Warwick. U r correct.
As i've said earlier, i too am a huge Ali fan, but this whole thing was a joke.
Liston was looking for an out.
The Anchor punch was Mumbo Jumbo made up by someone in his entourage.
Angelo Dundee even tried to say "i teach that punch"..strange it wasn't a common ocurence then ?
...pure nonsense .

 

The knockdown was real for sure. Was it enough for a real KO, or did Sonny Liston quit, only Liston can tell us the truth. Or rather can't...

 

The fight, the punch and Liston's reaction was a complete farce.

I just watch the fight again (for about the 50th time), there was nothing on the punch and Liston gave the worst acting performance in the history of mankind with all the rolling around on the floor.

 

Yeah, I agree with this.

 

It really chaps my pecker-hole seeing this pretense that gets bandied about that a boxer's reaction to any particular shot ought to "look" a certain way that aesthetically satisfies any one knucklehead armchair pug's meaningless, arbitrary expectations. Idiots run their mouths as though it were some kind of science. I wonder how many of them are biophysicists? Specifically, biophysicists that specialize in the effects of cerebral trauma in humans induced by gloved closed-fist strikes? I'm going to limb-ride here and say none of them. If you put in the hours to become a biophysicist, you are going to do something more productive than map out the myriad possible responses to a punch with your time.

So, we can safely assume, no peer-reviewed scientific data exists.

So, further, we can say that none of us knows a god damn thing about what a reaction to any given punch "should" resemble. 100% of such claims are to be filed under "opinion" (and not even in the subdivided manila folder titled "educated opinion"), and 0% under "fact".

"b-b-b-b-but I've watched boxing for __ years! I know how things ought to look!"

No, you don't. The one thing has literally naught to do with the other.

"b-b-b-b-but I was ringside for _____ vs. _____ and had my favorite sport coat ruined by a stray fleck of Howard Cosell's pomade! I have been around the block and feel like I know my stuff!"

I don't care. You are not a biophysicist with a professional concentration on the effects of punches, so kindly sit down and STFU and continue putting on your pants one leg at once like the rest of us.

Everybody is wired differently, neurologically. There are countless minutiae - angles, momentum, the relative location of nerves, the status of internal systems of the blow's recipient beyond numbering - potentially contributing to any knockdown or knockout that has ever occurred in the sport, too plentiful and in many cases too nuanced and fine in detail (and thus undetectable by the naked eye, or even with deductive supposition by a highly intelligent observer) disproportionately to how greatly they may factor, unseen, into a physiological response. No conclusive studies have been done and no hard science is there supporting any theory pertaining to what makes this or that punch affect this or that person in this or that way. (See Ex.A)

There are plenty of salient examples - in championship matches and otherwise high profile headlining televised matches alone, never mind the rest of the iceberg we aren't seeing beyond its tip - of a knockdown or knockout failing to adhere to preconceived notions of the mechanics from a spectator's vantage...in other words, seeming a little "strange". Most of those examples, at least in the modern era, since the advent of television, without the mob presence and smoky pool hall atmosphere of the first half of the last century, have in fact been on the level. Thus spake Occam's razor. Most have, in spite of that, and in spite of a dearth of any compelling reason to doubt them beyond the aesthetics, been mired in pervasive and die hard conspiracy theories, many for decades even while flying in the face of all logic - and video evidence! All because people are subject to getting swept up in group hysteria, and often are too quick to "trust in their gut instincts" - which, in their hubris, they grossly overestimate.

Clay had, of course, scouted Liston rather thoroughly in the previous year. His movement flowing on the backfoot as the ring general was very self-assured because of this, as was his placement of the counter right hand over the lazy jab. He certainly expected he would touch Liston with the right. He also expected Liston would be there for the left hook on which Ali subsequently wound up. That was the punch Ali was expecting he would use to get Liston's respect. The right was more of a set-up type shot. As it happens, to Ali's surprise and that of the world, it was enough to drop Liston. Yes, it was. For whatever confluence of reasons (where it caught him, the detrimental effect of his own momentum running into Ali's glove and meeting it halfway, the fact that Liston was maybe in sub-par condition, perhaps too scared witless by death threats from the NOI and his own shady dealings in the underworld to properly train - whatever) - it was a real punch, and consequently produced a very real knockdown, up through which nothing about the fight can be questioned as suspect. All of it transpired on film and is there for anybody to view at their leisure (see Ex.B). Up through when Liston went down, everything was on the level. From there, of course, the scene denigrated into pure madness, some of which can be lain at the feet of JJW and some at Nat Fleischer (see Ex.E), but really it was just a chaotic situation with the obvious inference being that Liston oversold his reaction once down and did indeed want out.

The knockdown itself, though? Irreproachable.

(as were those in a couple of similarly misunderstood and carelessly scrutinized KO1s, namely Marquez's over Ramos and Wilder's over Scott...see Ex.C & D)


Exhibit A:
http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=182602

Ex. B:
http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?p=8650876#post8650876

Ex. C:
http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?p=11220163#post11220163

Ex. D:
http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?p=16077657#post16077657

Ex. E:
http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?p=16565729#post16565729


...and I'm ****ing out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIdUlp3QAsk

 

Good post. Although a helluva long winded way of saying the knockdown was on the level!

 

he only used it once

 

Yes, the punch landed. Ali never produced a one punch KO in his life, and most agree Sonny had a solid chin. It was a fix or clear quit job.

Ali yelled at Liston! " Get up, nobody will believe this " Liston rolled over and waited for miscast Joe Walcott to start the count.

 

Yes it was long-winded but still only a drop in the bucket compared with all the breath, ink & bytes that have been wasted on this argument for just shy of fifty years now. :verysad (the "golden anniversary" is coming up in three months)

My hope was to once and for all stick a cork in this, as there should have been no argument in the first place. Everybody ought to be on the same page now - and should have been then - about the punch and knockdown being legit, but the rest of it from there (Liston rolling around, not wanting any more; the gross incompetence & inexperience of Walcott as officiator; the wildly inappropriate and unprofessional involvement of a member of the press at ringside) being screwy.

That was my attempt to "Ether" (à la Nas vs. Jay Z) the believers of the Phantom bunkum.

Probably wishful thinking. Viva stupidity. I mean, how long now have scientists insisted the Loch Ness Monster doesn't exist, and yet still you have tourists flocking there every year, hoping for a peek.

I look forward to debating this subject on the 100th anniversary of the rematch, provided I'm still a live & kicking octogenarian.

 

He produced one-punch knockdowns, though.

Guys with excellent chins get dropped unexpectedly by average or light hitters with a fair amount of frequency, actually - especially when there is a disparity in speed and boxing skill between them and the downed party is lumbering in and countered with a shot he doesn't see coming. Just some recent examples: Alexander's knockout of Urango (which led many to characterize Alexander's uppercut as being a devastating punch for years thereafter despite never replicating that success), Pulev dropping Ustinov with a jab, etc.

Once he was down - then, yes, it gets suspect. All the rolling around, writhing. That was Liston seeking an out. The knockdown, however, was involuntary and came because Liston was caught. Of course he could have bounced right up, and it should have only been a quick flash knockdown, but it was enough to convince him (if his mind wasn't already made up) that he didn't want to go another 15 - or even another six, as before - with Ali.

 

Liston was caught cold when Ali hit him with that punch. Liston took this fight very seriously. Reports from his camp told the story of a very determined challenger. And he looked very, very fit, much more defined than in their first fight. He wanted to get Ali out of there early - but Ali on his feet, dancing was´nt frightened by Liston. He threw punches knowing he could hurt Liston . . . and he did. It was the bad refereeing of Wallcot under the influence of Nat Fleisher at ringside that prevented Ali of finishing the fight in a satisfactory matter.

 

:thumbsup :deal

I actually feel that if that follow-up left hook of Ali's had landed, this entire conversation would be moot and would not have spanned all these generations. Unlike the 'stay-put' quick right hand, Ali threw his left hook with venom (actually biting his bottom lip, turning into the punch) - it was meant to hurt Sonny, after the right handed tap between the eyes sort of froze him in place for a moment. If you consider that Sonny was affected enough by the right as it was to fall - even if only for a flash knockdown, less his augmenting it with his stop-drop-and-roll playacting - if he were to have lingered in the strike zone another moment and soaked up that left hook on top of it? We could've actually seen a legitimate and non-controversial KO1. Or at least a more acceptable TKO1, with Liston put down by the punch and behaving in a manner befitting someone caught hard, and then probably swarmed and flurried upon while still groggy until Walcott intervened, making for a far more satisfactory finish.

Or, who knows, maybe it would have lit a fire under Sonny's ass, made him mad and changed his mind about seeking an exit, and we could have ended up with a real fight proceeding from there.

Bottom line, Ali should have tightened up that combo and had the left hook drop in directly on the heels of that right without leaving any gap between them. If he would have done so the result of Ali vs. Liston II would have a very different place in history.