A question to Roy Jones Jnr fans about his win over J Toney

bailey · Feb 20, 2015

BOMB SQUAD said: ↑

Oh look, it's another thinly-veiled slappy thread by Bailey.
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Yet here you are posting atsch:hi:

BlizzyBlizz · Feb 20, 2015

Oh, you're the OP lol...

BlizzyBlizz · Feb 20, 2015

- drawn with S Williams
- been taken to a SD by M Sosa
- was behind against M Nunn before the finish
- was taken to a SD by R Johnson
- drawn with M McCallum
- had a SD with Tiberi where some felt he lost
- a MDec with McCallum

This is the problem. The outlook on these fights is terrible.

bailey · Feb 20, 2015

LondonRingRules said: ↑

That is literally spot on as to how bailey would talk about it :good
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atsch. Someone above who has obviously been schooled before.

had a SD with #1 ranked Tiberi

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No I think I would leave that one out

bailey · Feb 20, 2015

88Chris05 said: ↑

Haven't checked the subsequent comments but the original post is a masterpiece of spin and one-eyedness. Feels to me a little symptomatic of the 'lose one fight and you've been exposed' view that a lot of fans take these days.

Toney had a short amateur career - 24 fights only, which included no titles. He was still very much learning on the job in the early stages in his pro career so the odd draw with a decent pro like Williams or a split decisions against someone like Sosa, himself unbeaten and considered a prospect at the time, is hardly a disgrace.

He was still only 22 when he boxed Nunn, the same Nunn who'd looked on course to become one of the greatest Middleweights of all time up until that point and whose record overall doesn't do his talent justice. A young Toney having issues against a fighter as brilliant as a 1991 version of Nunn is hardly a disgrace, and besides, it gets overplayed how badly Toney was struggling in that bout before the eleventh round. He was the better man after the half way point and had a fair bit of success in the rounds leading up to the eleventh, although him being behind by a round or two before then was still fair enough. But certainly not the out-of-the-blue turnaround it's often portrayed as, and I'll stress again, Nunn was showing the signs of true greatness back then.

Tough fight (which I thought he just about did enough to win by virtue of his burst in the final two rounds) against Johnson, but apart from Roy, who ever had an easy night with Reggie back then? Johnson was mightily unlucky to drop decisions to Castro (the first one was an out and out shocker) and John David Jackson (I had Reggie winning by two-three). Most felt that Toney beat McCallum in that first drawn fight (me included, and he had Mike out on his feet at the end) and it was a fantastic, technical boxing match, and don't forget that McCallum was the favourite beforehand as some still felt that Toney was just a loud mouth who got lucky against Nunn. The draw with McCallum and the overall quality of his performance in the fight was the point at which Toney's doubters had to start acknowledging his right to belong at the very highest level, as evidenced by his 1991 Ring Magazine 'Fighter of the Year' award given to him shortly afterwards.

Have to hold my hands up to the Tiberi fight. A complete shocker and the decision was a disgrace. But that was only one fight and the only real performance of Toney's that was a really poor one prior to meeting Jones. Certainly doesn't wipe out all that went before or all that came after.

So yes, Toney's Middleweight form was patchy, but when you factor in how young he was when he stepped up to title level after a short amateur career, how good his opposition was and how frequently he was squaring off against high-calibre fighters (Sosa, Nunn, Reggie Johnson and McCallum x 2 were all accommodated in the space of just 19 months), I don't see any real cause for shame in that.

That was 160 - Jones faced him at 168 which seemed to suit Toney more and where he'd left those inconsistencies and struggles behind and hit the best form of his life. He was punch perfect against Barkley, clinical under the most urgent and demanding circumstances against Littles and put on an excellent show against Williams with a highlight-reel KO to put the icing on it. If indeed one judge really did have him behind after 11 rounds against Prince Charles, it says more about that judge's incompetence than it does about Toney's performance, which was very good.

So basically, while Toney had shown signs of inconsistency, he wasn't showing them when he signed to fight Jones. 1993/1994 was the best Toney had ever been and he's never been as good since.

And it wasn't just the fact that Jones beat him, it was how he beat him. Complete domination. A world class fighter with defining moments still ahead of him made to look like he'd never been in a boxing ring before. In most of Toney's 'off nights', even if he's lost, there's been debate about who the real victor was (Johnson, Griffin x 2 etc). But Jones completely wiped him out and outclassed him in a way that nobody else did until 2011, by which time Toney was 43 years old.

It was an absolutely sensational win and superb performance by Jones, a real indicator of what a frightening talent he was. There was, and still is, every reason for fans to be blown away by it.
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I like your post as you have at least tried to answer sensibly and look into things.
It wasnt just one fight and below is an example of what I was trying to say when explaining to another poster

No my point was if Toney had of lost by SD to Johnson, lost by SD to Sosa, lost by SD to Tiberi etc, would the Jones win have been considered as big? I would guess not as people are looking at his boxrec.
Nobody is questioning who he fought. Here is a post to another poster who needed further explaining -
Toney although having good performances also had some performances where style problems were revealed. Another example is with Froch like how many predicted for Ward to beat Froch, based on a tough fight with Adamu, Pascal, Taylor a SD that some feel he lost to Dirrell, a loss to Kessler a Mdec to old boiled down SMW journeyman Johnson. Before that fight, what Froch is good and not good at, had been found out, which is what I think about the Toney/Jones fight.
Toney had been in a tough fight with C Williams in the very fight before he fought Jones, had been troubled by pressure from Tiberi etc. With Jones, he hadnt really had many problems from opponents that Toney could site, but Toney had, had several. If the M Griffin fight for Jones, had of happened, it may have given him something he could have looked at for example

bailey · Feb 20, 2015

Foxy 01 said: ↑

Oh the irony.

.

That would be funny on this forum if it were not so tragically hypocritical. You have read the 78 million posts by other Jones apologists ( like you ) that Jones only lost because he was 35, and had " weight issues "

The difference being of course when he was beaten it was by fellow 35 year olds, ( the same age as McCallum in the Toney fight ) as opposed to being beaten by a 23 year old.

More spin.

When he first fought McCallum he was having his 30th fight in a little over 3 years. McCallum was having his 44th fight in almost 11 years. Believe me it wasn't because Mike was either lazy or was ducking people, rather it was the opposite. That is the only thing Toney deserves credit for, being willing to fight McCallum.

See video clip where JONES himself says he was well aware of Toney's weight making problems to Merchant in the post fight interview.

In your opinion. See above for weight making issues.

Again listen to Jones' explanation with regards to Toney losing weight, which are probably more believable than any of his fans.

Given the weight making issues ( admitted by Jones ) I would say it was good reason for fan boys to be blown away with it, as opposed to boxing fans.

To Bailey.

Give it up now my friend you have achieved what you set out to do, you have had all the little Jones fishes biting. Now is the time to sit back and laugh at them.

I love the McCallum references in this thread. If you had the time you could trawl this board and find hundreds of posts saying McCallum was great, but ................................................................................................................................................ there is even one in which Toney gives a breakdown of his career in an interview and breaks down the different criteria of boxing skills of all his opponents. In this he credits Mike with say 6 out of the 8 criteria best boxer, best defence, best offence, best ring generalship, blah, blah, blah

Well all of the little Jones maggots came racing out from under their stones screaming like r.a.p.e. victims.

" Toney doesn't know sh*t. "

" Toney is an *******. "

" Toney is only saying that cos he doesn't like Roid "

" Toney would never give credit to Roid. "

and any other pathetic girlie things you can think of.

Now listen to them. Both James and Mike are being elevated to SRR, and Ali type status. ( Do you think that might just be because Roid beat them both, even though Mike was 40 by then?:rofl:rofl )

As stated me amigo, you have achieved your objective, just sit back with a nice cold beer and laugh at the fools.
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Your breakdown of the post you highlighted (which I liked), was amazing and you really did show the one eyed saying up. Well done, you are a fantastic poster.
Maybe I should give up. I was trying to ask a simple question, but fanboys get very defensive with these things. Still as said, excellent posting from yourself

bailey · Feb 20, 2015

conraddobler said: ↑

what is this incoherent nonsense? It's so logically tortured I can't even figure out what the point is.
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I dont think anyone would expect you to be able to understand. Dont worry about it

BlizzyBlizz · Feb 20, 2015

bailey said: ↑

I like your post as you have at least tried to answer sensibly and look into things.
It wasnt just one fight and below is an example of what I was trying to say when explaining to another poster

No my point was if Toney had of lost by SD to Johnson, lost by SD to Sosa, lost by SD to Tiberi etc, would the Jones win have been considered as big? I would guess not as people are looking at his boxrec.
Nobody is questioning who he fought. Here is a post to another poster who needed further explaining -
Toney although having good performances also had some performances where style problems were revealed. Another example is with Froch like how many predicted for Ward to beat Froch, based on a tough fight with Adamu, Pascal, Taylor a SD that some feel he lost to Dirrell, a loss to Kessler a Mdec to old boiled down SMW journeyman Johnson. Before that fight, what Froch is good and not good at, had been found out, which is what I think about the Toney/Jones fight.
Toney had been in a tough fight with C Williams in the very fight before he fought Jones, had been troubled by pressure from Tiberi etc. With Jones, he hadnt really had many problems from opponents that Toney could site, but Toney had, had several. If the M Griffin fight for Jones, had of happened, it may have given him something he could have looked at for example
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Deal with the facts and not "ifs or had beens"...!

bailey · Feb 20, 2015

88Chris05 said: ↑

A few things, Foxy....

Having read a few of your posts in the past and usually finding them pretty interesting, you should know better than to start off the way you have above. McCallum was 35 in 1991, but he clearly aged better (or at least held off the ravages of father time) better than Jones did. Just because one fighter (McCallum) was still a good fighter at 35 it doesn't automatically mean that another fighter (Jones) can't have been finished at that age. Fighters peak and decline, sometimes very suddenly, at different ages. It's entirely possible for a speed and reflexes-reliant fighter like Jones to be done in his mid thirties and hit a steep decline while a less speedy but more savvy, ring-craft based guy like McCallum can produce the goods at such an age.

Do you actually watch fights or just judge off what BoxRec and the fighter's date of birth says? You're having a laugh if you think that the Jones who struggled first time with Tarver, got wiped out by him in the return and then looked abysmal before getting flattened again by Johnson in late 2003 / 2004 was the same fighter as the one who was pound for pound top dog a few years before. You might have your own reasons for why exactly he declined and became washed up so quickly, but washed up he was - all you need is a working pair of eyes to see that. And all you need is a working pair of eyes to see that McCallum was just better equipped to hang with better fighters aged 35 onwards than Jones was, as his showings against Toney and Harding demonstrated.

So no, I don't think there's any hypocrisy in praising Toney's performance against McCallum in 1991 and pointing out that Jones was going way over the hill by 2004 purely on the basis that they were both 35 at the time. Using that kind of gauge is just ridiculous, the same as the dullards who claim that Tyson couldn't have been shot against Lewis, or that the timing of the fight actually favoured him more than Lennox because it was Lewis who was actually older etc.

Are we pretending that McCallum wasn't vastly more experienced than Toney in 1991 now or something? Apologies, may have misinterpreted your second point but I'm struggling to see the relevance of it. Toney was taking on top-quality opponents in a short space of time which would seem alien to most today.

Ah, so you're taking umbrage to me stating that 1993 / 1994 Toney, at 168 and dominating his opponents rather than squeaking past them, was the best Toney ever had been or has been since. Well, either tell me when he was in better form or his stock was higher or keep quiet on that point, otherwise it just looks as if you're disagreeing for the sake of it because it doesn't fit your agenda. When was Toney ever performing better than he had been in the eighteen months prior to fighting Jones?

I'm well aware of the weight-making excuse on Toney's part. It's interesting, though - he went up to 175 to fight Griffin immediately after the Jones fight, lost a contentious decision, and guess what the excuse was. Yep, weight-making again. The way you're talking, you'd think the Jones fight was the only time Toney had ever had issues boiling down to his weight class (most of which were his own fault anyway) and Jones had made up some evil scheme to time his assault perfectly and basically cheat Toney out of his title.

Do you refuse to give Leonard credit for the 'No Mas' fight as well? Or for the Hearns win in 1981? After all, Leonard himself says in his autobiography, "When Tommy took off his robe and stepped on the scale at Caesers for the weigh in on the morning of the fight, I was stunned. He looked like a famine victim from Africa. Offically, he came in at 145, a full two pounds under the Welterweight limit. I'd felt the difference in Montreal against Duran, and I was convinced the lesser weight would make Tommy weaker as well. 'I am going to kick his ass', I thought. I glanced at Angelo and Janks. I could tell they felt the same way."

If you try hard enough you can make an excuse for any defeat of a fighter you like, or find a way to downplay a victory for a fighter you don't like. Weight, problems in camp, couldn't focus, location got to them, lost motivation etc. Unless a fighter is just washed up and can't perform to any kind of level anymore (so in short, if it's not their fault, ala Holyfield losing to some of the dross he did in his latter years etc) then those kind of excuses should be left outside the ropes once you step through them.

As for saying that people are building up McCallum or Jones to Robinson or Ali levels - you sound like a pre-menstrual tart. Talk about stupid and childish over exaggeration.
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Not breaking down all of this post, but you have lost it a bit when you comment about watching fights and Boxrec, when so many are using boxrec in this thread about Roy beating Toney and looking at the 0, rather than the decisions leading to that fight

BlizzyBlizz · Feb 20, 2015

The thread is over. You all have let the OP know that his cheap outlook on Toneys wins are more expensive than he thought lol.

bailey · Feb 20, 2015

Dubblechin said: ↑

Toney was undefeated, he'd decisioned the likes of Mike McCallum and Reggie Johnson, and he'd KOed the likes of Michael Nunn, Iran Barkley and Prince Charles Williams ... and you want to know why it was a big win?

Do you watch boxing? Is this your first rodeo?

If someone stepped up and shut out and embarrassed Andre Ward, would that be a big win?

And, unlike Ward, Toney fought five times the year he faced Jones, seven times the year before that, five times the year before that, six times the year before that - when he faced Nunn, Johnson and McCallum (the first time).

He wasn't a "I'll fight in May and September" type. As super middleweight and middleweight champ, he was fighting someone on TV every six weeks or so.

If someone like Pac fought SEVEN TIMES A YEAR, and occasionally had an off night because he couldn't get up for an opponent who he knew he could beat, I don't think most people would mind.
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You fell straight into it, with your opening sentence. You are looking at his boxrec rather than the fights themselves. Here is a post to another poster which may help you

No my point was if Toney had of lost by SD to Johnson, lost by SD to Sosa, lost by SD to Tiberi etc, would the Jones win have been considered as big? I would guess not as people are looking at his boxrec.
Nobody is questioning who he fought. Here is a post to another poster who needed further explaining -
Toney although having good performances also had some performances where style problems were revealed. Another example is with Froch like how many predicted for Ward to beat Froch, based on a tough fight with Adamu, Pascal, Taylor a SD that some feel he lost to Dirrell, a loss to Kessler a Mdec to old boiled down SMW journeyman Johnson. Before that fight, what Froch is good and not good at, had been found out, which is what I think about the Toney/Jones fight.
Toney had been in a tough fight with C Williams in the very fight before he fought Jones, had been troubled by pressure from Tiberi etc. With Jones, he hadnt really had many problems from opponents that Toney could site, but Toney had, had several. If the M Griffin fight for Jones, had of happened, it may have given him something he could have looked at for example

bailey · Feb 20, 2015

BlizzyBlizz said: ↑

please just shut up. Not everyone is going to ride with the Brit theory and outlooks on American fighters. I like Calzaghe, Toney, and Jones. Cal fought a shot Roy and that's it. Cal gives prime Roy a good fight. I don't question anyone on any of these guys resume. Toney has only himself to blame for the jones loss. And while what happened between Toney and Tiberi, Tiberi still couldn't hit Toney and Toney was totally dehydrated and undertrained not taking that fight seriously. the OPs question is a simpleton question and you know it. When are you going to keep it real, damn!

I obviously don't understand :rofl
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Why you bringing up Calzaghe for no reason, trying to say you like him and then say he beat a shot fighter? atsch.
Also why are you bringing up nations?
This Thread is about Roys fight with Toney and you will have to get over your being butthurt.
Read some of the other posts and be an onlooker rather than a poster here, as it is out of your depth on here

bailey · Feb 20, 2015

BlizzyBlizz said: ↑

Deal with the facts and not "ifs or had beens"...!
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I have dealt with the facts, which are here

- drawn with S Williams
- been taken to a SD by M Sosa
- was behind against M Nunn before the finish
- was taken to a SD by R Johnson
- drawn with M McCallum
- had a SD with Tiberi where some felt he lost
- a MDec with McCallum

and your response to that is

This is the problem. The outlook on these fights is terrible.

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atsch
You completely pwned yourself

Loudon · Feb 20, 2015

Serge said: ↑

Easily. How much do you think he weighs here? And that's after putting himself through the rigors of an eight week training camp.

http://i.imgur.com/8l17204.png
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:rofl

Is that a photo of Gabe Brown?

Super Hans · Feb 20, 2015

If it was Calzaghe who beat Toney and not Jones, all the people wittering on about how good a win it was would be calling Toney a fat waster.

I for one rate motivated Kessler higher than unmotivated PED cheat. Toney :good

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A question to Roy Jones Jnr fans about his win over J Toney

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