Prime for prime, so no "Ali of Spinks" or the like. I have a difficult time figuring a really good "real" heavyweight champ who I'm confident Floyd could beat. Who do you think fits the bill?
The first linear champ was in 1876. Don't know much about Joe Goss, but I would put the house payment on Floyd. [url]http://boxing.about.com/od/history/a/lineal_heavyweights.htm[/url] As a matter of fact, of the pre-depression guys, he probably would have beaten all of them, with the exception of Johnson, and arguably Dempsey. These are the modern guys: Dempsey: 50/50 Tunney: Yes Schmeling: 50/50 Sharkey: Yes Carnera: 70/30 (His favor) Baer: 40/60 Braddock: Yes Louis: No Ezzard Charles 40/60 Walcott: 50/50 Marciano 30/70 (Patterson didn't lose to short, straightforward guys, he would have had a chance.) Johanssen 80/20 (won 2/3) The rest are too big, except for Spinks whom he beats easily.
^He'd also have a good chance against guys like Mike Spinks, Douglas, Moorer, and Rahman. I guess "Old Foreman" is excluded, but Patterson would beat him.
Good list and ****ysis. I don't think I'd give him 50/50 against Dempsey though. Jack had the right style and punching ability to take Floyd out quick
It's still debatable who wins Patterson v Johansson prime-for-prime. Some people argue that Patterson wasn't at his best in the first fight. I think by the time of the second fight Johansson had partied away much of his abilities, and although Patterson looked quite ferocious maybe he was already damaged goods. Third fight, the same for both of them, and more so. I think the first fight is probably the closest reflection of a prime-for-prime match-up in the trilogy. But even if we discard it and say Patterson wins prime-for-prime, the only reason Ingo is in this discussion is because Floyd lost to him, so it doesn't really count. I think Patterson could beat James Braddock and Hasim Rahman, and probably beats the Jack Sharkey of 1932 (who wasn't quite prime, imo, but that was when he won the championship). I think he beats Michael Spinks and Michael Moorer. Leon Spinks. Tommy Burns. Marvin Hart. James J Corbett.
Lets start at the beginning then. Dangerous pick, but I rather fancy that he might have had the tools for beat Jim Corbett, so good start there. Marvin Hart would have been dangerous for him, but if he plays matador, he probably outpoints him. Tommy Burns probably doesn't do so well against a bigger guy who is faster than him, so lets go with him here. I think he would have probably outpointed Braddock if he was not stopped, so we could justify favoring him here. We don't need to question whether he could have beaten Johansen, because he did. No problem at all picking him over Leon Spinks. I would reluctantly pick him over Michael Spinks, because of his much deeper resume north of 175lbs. I would pick him over Michael Moorer, but no money is going down. He has a good chance against guys like Rahman and Briggs, but it is going to be a dangerous pick to make. Beyond that, it is going to be hard to back him too heavily.
Well, he stopped Ingo in 2 out of 3 fights. He'd have a chance vs.- Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, Hart, Burns, Johnson, Willard, Dempsey, Tunney, Schmeling, Sharkey, Carnera, Baer, Braddock. He might give Louis some problems. Patterson was fast, accurate, and he hit hard. Charles vs. Patterson might be a good fight. Walcott or Marciano vs. Patterson would be good as well. Modern? L. and M. Spinks, Moorer That's about it.
I think it's a common misnomer that guys would just run over Floyd. The guys who beat him were all tall jabber / counterpuncher types, Ali, Liston, Johannson, Ellis, Quarry. He had no real problem with aggressive fighters. He beat Bonavena, Chuvalo, Henry Cooper, Hurricane Jackson etc. because they came to him. And Dempsey was only 183 lbs. There are exceptions, but the biggest factor in heavyweight boxing is physics. A guy like Rachman or Foreman with 40-60 lbs. on Floyd would stop him 9 times out of 10; it's why they make weight classes.
My take would be that Patterson is being both overrated and underrated by posters on this board. Corbett--so long ago, but Patterson's performance against other jab and move boxers leaves me in doubt. Toss-up Fitz--Floyd might get to him first, but Floyd's weak jaw makes this one very iffy. Toss-up Jeff--Floyd didn't do all that well against big men, so Jeff should be favored, especially over 20 to 25 rounds, but Jeff's open defense certainly might lead to Floyd cutting him up. Hart--I like Floyd off what I have read, but without film, just a guess. Burns--I like Floyd, the bigger man. Johnson--Floyd's quick hands would be something I don't think Johnson ever saw, and Johnson's own chin wasn't the best. This might be a closer fight than most would expect, but I have to take Johnson. Willard--Willard might win a finish fight, but Floyd should outpoint him over 10 or 15 easily. Dempsey--a battle of quick men with quick hands. Dempsey does seem to have been more durable. To win, Floyd would have to get off first, but he often tended to play a waiting game. On balance, Dempsey. Tunney--I have to part company with most here. I think Tunney has just the style to handle Patterson and also had the punch to hurt him. Floyd's performances against boxers from Maxim to Ellis was not that impressive. He tended to stay at the end of jabs. Schmeling--a really aggressive Floyd could keep Max on the defensive and win this one, but if he chooses to box I think he ends up like he did in the first Ingo fight. I have to go with Max. Sharkey--never been that impressed with Jack. Not much power, so I think Floyd outpoints him. Carnera--This is total shot in the dark as Floyd didn't do much against quality big men, but is Carnera quality? a toss-up. Baer--I think Baer at his best is too big and strong and hits too hard. Braddock--I like Floyd Louis--Louis easily. Charles--I think Charles was just somewhat better at his best. Walcott--I think Walcott at his best was also somewhat better. Marciano--The closest comp was Chuvalo, much bigger but not nearly as dangerous a puncher. I think Floyd's performance against Chuvalo does not speak well of his chances against Rocky. I take Marciano. Johansson--of course Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, etc.--I don't see Floyd winning. Leon Spinks--I like Floyd easily. Michael Spinks--I have to part company here. I think the heavyweight Michael handles Patterson. Wlad and Vitali--Floyd has no chance--way too big. Lewis--also way too big.