Not a Bad Argument Pro-Dempsey ..

janitor · Mar 9, 2015

Unforgiven said: ↑

I doubt either of them was the best heavyweight in the world at the time anyway.
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I would be more than interested to hear who was then!

PowerPuncher · Mar 10, 2015

janitor said: ↑

It is well within the rules of the game to match a fighter carefully, and hype them up.

If nothing else, Firpo deserved a title shot due to beating Willard.

You could argue that Wills should have got one first, but Firpo should have been very high on the list of candidates.
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Willard had 1 meaningful fight in 8 years which saw him got destroyed, after that he hadn't fought in 4 years.

Using a past it ex champ is a good way to hype up a contender, it doesn't make his title shot deserved.

Wills was due his title shot before Willard, Dempsey and ofcourse any of Dempsey's challenges.

janitor · Mar 10, 2015

PowerPuncher said: ↑

Willard had 1 meaningful fight in 8 years which saw him got destroyed, after that he hadn't fought in 4 years.

Using a past it ex champ is a good way to hype up a contender, it doesn't make his title shot deserved.

Wills was due his title shot before Willard, Dempsey and ofcourse any of Dempsey's challenges.
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Willard was coming off a win over the highly regarded Floyd Johnson when Firpo fought him.

Whether you like it or not that made him a legitimate and credible title challenger.

We don't say that none of Floyd Mayweathers opponents deserved their title shots, because Manny Pacquiao would have been a better challenger.

PowerPuncher · Mar 10, 2015

janitor said: ↑

Willard was coming off a win over the highly regarded Floyd Johnson when Firpo fought him.

Whether you like it or not that made him a legitimate and credible title challenger.

We don't say that none of Floyd Mayweathers opponents deserved their title shots, because Manny Pacquiao would have been a better challenger.
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Highly regarded by his mum maybe

Firpo wasn't the second most deserving challenger either, not to mention an ancient Johnson handled him in sparring.

janitor · Mar 10, 2015

PowerPuncher said: ↑

Highly regarded by his mum maybe
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Look at his run of form, and look at the media coverage of his fight with Willard.

Firpo wasn't the second most deserving challenger either, not to mention an ancient Johnson handled him in sparring.

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Who was the second most deserving challenger then?

Shoot.
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PowerPuncher · Mar 10, 2015

janitor said: ↑

Look at his run of form, and look at the media coverage of his fight with Willard.

Who was the second most deserving challenger then?

Shoot.
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He beat Fulton but Fulton was on the downturn of his career being blown out by the better HWs. And he beat Brennan who was a gatekeeper. No great shakes

Second best challenger is obviously Greb
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janitor · Mar 10, 2015

PowerPuncher said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

He beat Fulton but Fulton was on the downturn of his career being blown out by the better HWs. And he beat Brennan who was a gatekeeper. No great shakes

Second best challenger is obviously Greb
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Ring Magazine published its first annual rankings at the end of 1924, and had Firpo ranked seventh.

At this stage he had lost to Dempsey, Wills and Weinert, all of who were among the fighters ranked above him.

Is it not reasonable to extrapolate from this, that he would have been ranked somewhat higher than seventh before he fought Dempsey, and indeed after he fought Dempsey?
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choklab · Mar 11, 2015

PowerPuncher said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

He beat Fulton but Fulton was on the downturn of his career being blown out by the better HWs. And he beat Brennan who was a gatekeeper. No great shakes

Second best challenger is obviously Greb
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Floyd also beat Bob Johnson another better than half decent campaigner of that era. Bob beat Frank Moran and Gunboat Smith. Went the distance with Tunney and Brennan. Floyd was the first to stop him. Floyd was decent when big Jessy beat him.
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janitor · Mar 11, 2015

choklab said: ↑

PowerPuncher said: ↑

Floyd also beat Bob Johnson another better than half decent campaigner of that era. Bob beat Frank Moran and Gunboat Smith. Went the distance with Tunney and Brennan. Floyd was the first to stop him. Floyd was decent when big Jessy beat him.
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It seems that Willard had been intended as a steeping stone to the title for Johnson, as he ultimately was for Firpo.

Of course in the end Willard had other ideas, and a left hook took Johnson out.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...00hAAAAIBAJ&sjid=GYIFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4652,2715230
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louis54 · Mar 11, 2015

tracks for horses styles for fighters - dempsey and wills in prime- dempsey easy and early. dempsey was a big duran

PowerPuncher · Mar 11, 2015

janitor said: ↑

PowerPuncher said: ↑

Ring Magazine published its first annual rankings at the end of 1924, and had Firpo ranked seventh.

At this stage he had lost to Dempsey, Wills and Weinert, all of who were among the fighters ranked above him.

Is it not reasonable to extrapolate from this, that he would have been ranked somewhat higher than seventh before he fought Dempsey, and indeed after he fought Dempsey?
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I don't think so, Miske was still active then and those Ring Rankings don't rank Greb or Norfolk at the weight.
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Seamus · Mar 11, 2015

louis54 said: ↑

tracks for horses styles for fighters - dempsey and wills in prime- dempsey easy and early. dempsey was a big duran
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Baer over Braddock easy and early...

Liston over Clay easy and early...

Ali over Spinks easy and early...

Tyson over Douglas easy and early...

Lewis over Rahman easy and early...

Sure is nice to given the chance.

janitor · Mar 11, 2015

PowerPuncher said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

I don't think so, Miske was still active then and those Ring Rankings don't rank Greb or Norfolk at the weight.
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Miske was at deaths door when Dempsey fought Firpo. Of course if you feel that he was still a top five guy despite this, then you presumably rate Dempsey's last win over him fairly highly.

Kid Norfolk was past his prime, had a few losses, and wasn't really campaigning at heavyweight any more.

Greb was mainly campaigning at middleweight and light heavyweight, so his ranking would depend on how Ring wanted to look at it.

I think it is very very unlikely that Miske or Norfolk could have been ranked higher than Firpo, after he defeated Willard.
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PowerPuncher · Mar 11, 2015

janitor said: ↑

PowerPuncher said: ↑

Miske was at deaths door when Dempsey fought Firpo. Of course if you feel that he was still a top five guy despite this, then you presumably rate Dempsey's last win over him fairly highly.

Kid Norfolk was past his prime, had a few losses, and wasn't really campaigning at heavyweight any more.

Greb was mainly campaigning at middleweight and light heavyweight, so his ranking would depend on how Ring wanted to look at it.

I think it is very very unlikely that Miske or Norfolk could have been ranked higher than Firpo, after he defeated Willard.
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Miske was close to deaths door but he knocked Fulton out in 1 who Floyd Johnson took late into the fight so he still has to rank higher surely.

What's not debatable is that Greb was the more outstanding challenger.

Why fight Carpentier, Miske and Brennan instead of Greb who easily beat 2 of them? There's really no excuse for that when Greb wanted the fight.
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janitor · Mar 11, 2015

PowerPuncher said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

Miske was close to deaths door but he knocked Fulton out in 1 who Floyd Johnson took late into the fight so he still has to rank higher surely.
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Fulton Miske II seems to have been viewed as a fight between two has beens. While it is very impressive, I doubt that it would have propelled Miske up our hypothetical rankings.

What's not debatable is that Greb was the more outstanding challenger.

Why fight Carpentier, Miske and Brennan instead of Greb who easily beat 2 of them? There's really no excuse for that when Greb wanted the fight.
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OK, so Greb was the more outstanding challenger.

That doesn't mean that the other guys were not credible challengers, or deserving challengers.

It is actually comparatively rare for a champion to meet their absolute #1 challenger.
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