Sonny Liston vs. Vitali Klitschko

Vitali wins this one. Liston is one of the most over rated fighters of all time, essentially famous for taking dives, his legend it maintained in order for Ali's status to be elevated.

Vitali is a top 10 all time Heavyweight great, his size, power and good chin make him a favourite over probably any champion before 1960.

Vitali wins this one.

 

And he very nearly became a three time heavyweight champion in 1968 when many felt he was robbed against Ellis. Not sure I buy this claim that Patterson was washed up against Liston.

 

"Does one really need to see a fighter face another hall of fame fighter in his prime to achieve greatness?"

No. Prime versus prime is very rare in boxing history.

"I say no if he's utterly dominate in the ring as Vitali was."

But it does matter if he was dominant against the best available competition. The problem with Vitali is that he did not defeat the best available.

"no fighter in the history of the ring has a better rounds won to rounds lost ratio than Vitali."

These kind of weird stats remind me of the American football coach Vince Lombardi's comment,

"Statistics are for losers."

If Vitali had beaten the two best men he fought, that is what his defenders would immediately point to. But he lost to the only great (but past his best) and very good fighters he fought. He best wins are over merely above average or just pretty good opponents.

I voted for Vitali over Liston. His size and skill make him theoretically an hellacious opponent for anyone in a fantasy match.

As an historical figure, though, Vitali falls very short. He for the most part didn't meet the best available opposition, although in some cases this was certainly not his fault,

but the two he did meet he ended up losing to,

and that 0-2 will be the one "stat," or better, fact which will define his place in boxing history in my judgment.

 

Ed,


You just can't quote the legendary Vince Lombardi on statistics and end with a stat. That's Yogi Berra type of logic!

Who outside of his brother did Vitali miss out on? As mentioned Lewis avoided a re-match, and Haye and Vaulev backed out of fight offers. Vitali was an avoided fighter, even late in his career and never made a name beating the tar out past their prime greats in Holyfield or Tyson.

It's a fact that Vitali did much better vs Sanders. Purity and Peter in comparison to his brother. Most hard core Klitschko fans think Vitali was the better of the two.

To better quote Lombardi, what matters most is Vitali was #1 in the world for a while ( Ring Magazine, Box Rec, Fight News, ESPN, etc.. ), and had many successful title defenses.

Few in boxing had more successful title defenses or was ranked either #1 or #2 overall for as long. Few were champion past age 40. In the history of boxing, only the best have been champion past age 40. It's a small club.

Liston? He had but one title defense, and was a very bad 0-2 vs the best he fought. Vitali's losses were based on an injury, and a cut, not his ability.

 

Maybe, but again, I wouldn't put much on him, even for just that one fight. Too much chance of a repeat of Ingo. I'm not sure Eddie ever beat someone Sanders' size and power.

He'd have a better chance here, but again, small bets only. These are bigger and more powerful contenders than most of Eddie's competition. He'd certainly have to be focused and stable, adjectives that couldn't always be attributed to him.

Would it be more accurate to say that you'd pick Machen to beat any one he ever beat, rather than everyone he ever beat ?

 

Sometimes a poster says something and it has to be reeled in. Most of us do it every now and then. It is highly unlikely that Machen would beat everyone Vitali bet minus Lennox Lewis.

Machen lost 11 times. He was not good at all vs punchers ( Ingo, Liston, Frazier, Patterson and Williams. 0-4-1

Machen was not good vs. much taller fighters either ( Williams, Terell ) 0-1-1.

Vitali's opposition has lots of big guys who can punch, and many that would tower over Machen. Draw your own conclusions.

Mine is Machen was at his best vs men his size where he could use his skills. I reckon Machen would lose at least 4 times if he fought all the fighters Vitali beat.

This is not to say he would not be competitive with most of them.

 

Yeah, but he lost to Liston, who claimed to have had an off night. (And not his first off-night)

This is true.

But IMO, had Machen faced Vitali's competition, he would have had more losses than Vitali had.

I don't see the two as being close h2h.

 

What? Greatest single come back of all time by Machen??? Do you want to take that one back quickly?!

Mis-truth? I said Machen was not good at all vs punchers ( Ingo, Liston, Frazier, Patterson and Williams. 0-4-1. Now your putting in Valdes and DeJohn to that list?

Um, no. DeJohn and Valdes were not in Liston, Ingo's, Frazier, C. Williams or Patterson's class as a punchers.

Valdes had a 51% KO ratio, DeJohn 52%. A bit low to be called a " puncher "

More like you saying Machen beats anyone Vitali has beaten, and Machen's comeback is the best of all time are shall we say extreme views. And you had to put in second rate punchers to comment my point that Machen lost to the best punchers he faced and put in some no name taller fighters. How about Machen struggled with the taller fighters with top ten skills. Case closed as he did.

Riddle me this McGrain, is the heavyweight division so dismal, how come we don't see light heavies or curriers moving up? The answer is the division is too big, and light heavy or cruiser weight types you rank in the top 100 are simply out of business these days! Size, physically and power matter. It's been over 30 years since there has been a sub 200 pound champion lineal champion. Machen at below 200 pounds would NOT do as well as you claim.

I am familiar with Machen. He was good on defense, pretty tough and a good counter puncher.

 

McGain,

Send me your top 100 list via PM or post it here. Even though everyone has their own criteria, I'd like to take a look at it. If I'm reading your numbers correctly, you have Joey Maxim at #65. That would be rare.

By the way Machen's victory over a very faded Maxim need to be factored in. Summlerin had lost two in a row before facing Machen, and was pretty shot as well. Valdes lost three of his last four before facing Machen. Bob Baker lost two in a row and 4 of his last 6 before facing Machen.

IMO, some of these big wins for Machen were vs past their prime name guys.

Machen got it handed to him vs the best he fought in Ingo, Liston, Patterson and Frazier.

Machen's best win? Quarry. Also what about Machen's loss and draw to Folley, and does Folly crack your top 100.

 

The height is not the issue, to me it's issue of Vitali doing great, and Liston not. Liston was ko'd, he was champ short time, and he beat few contenders.