Tiger Flowers an underrated old timer?

They probably ran off to Australia like Jack Johnson

 

Greb was 300 figjts into his career, had battled a couple dozen hall of famers and was blind in one eye.
He was about to have the eye removed entirely and call it quits. I would harldy say that Flowers, who would weirdly also die on the operating table, held even with a prime Greb.

 

U wot m8?

 

I never said "prime," but Tiger fought him in 1924 (lost a newspaper decision, but it wasnt 'unanimous' as accounts varied as to who had won, so it was obviously competitive). And less than a month later Greb was handling Tunney, so I doubt he was on the backslide at that point.

And Greb was still world champ when Tiger beat him the first time. And he was a contender when Tiger beat him the second time as it was a title fight.

I'm not arguing that Flowers was better than prime Greb, but he was somewhere in the upper echelon as even though he lost to Mickey Walker it was considered a robbery -- thus at the very least he was extremely competitive in that bout -- and he did beat Greb twice, which darned sure counts for something.

 

If he were black he would have been.

 

I have read that Flowers did not deserve to win against Greb and did not deserve to lose against Walker. he was also described as a left handed Greb.plus I think he was a little chinny but a lot of those were light heavies, Delaney ko'd him early twice Kid Norfolk also early twice. Langford ko 2.in total I believe there were 10.If I remember rightly In the book Give him to the angels. I think Gene Tunney told Greb after the Flowers fight that he did not lose.He was definitely good, possibly underated but I can't help thinking about the ko's when I think about rating him.In the RING annual 2002 they listed who they thought were the 80 greatest fighters of the past 80 years and they had Flowers at number 45. D

 

I think that Flowers is overrated. He was good at times, but not great. He had two wins over a very old (shot?) Harry Greb.

 

It was close, yes. Greb underestimated Flowers, who was a bit of an unknown commodity at the time. He was also fighting with one eye and with 11 insanely busy and rough years under his belt. Still a formidable fighter for sure, but not at his best.

I'd take the 1919-1920 Greb to beat Flowers 10 of 15 rounds.

 

According to his record on BoxRec, Tiger Flowers was stopped ten times during his career. All-time greats or simply great fighters generally were stopped far less often during their careers even if they had a tremendous number of fights.

- Chuck Johnston

 

i was going to agree with mcgrain but then i read the rest of the thread, hell yeah he is underrated here.

stopped 1 more time than langford. Is that 10th stoppage the difference between p4p top 5 and not great?

i'm convinced walker was a gambler's decision

not a top 20 p4p contender, but a very strong fighter, and for damn sure being underrated in this thread.

 

Greb was given the decision by 14 local and regional papers while Flowers was declared winner by 5. 3 papers chose it a draw. We call this a newspaper decision.

By 1924 Greb was at the end of his run and definitely past his prime. He was still an enormously potent fighting machine but no one should argue he was at his best.

Flowers, with his speed and output, was a great foil to Greb, moreso than lumbering power merchants or low output crafty types. And Greb lacked the definitive clout to capitalize on Flowers' glaring weakness.

 

From a few write-ups I found a while back, it sounds like some writers felt that Flowers won all of his fights against Greb:

FIGHT 1:

Lewie Little, Toledo Sports Critics Say Tiger Flowers Beat Greb, Nashville Banner, August 31, 1924

“Tiger Flowers, ebony-hued, rubber-bodied son of Georgia, got a raw deal in his fight with Harry Greb in Fremont, O., last week, according to stories of the fight written by sports authorities connected with newspapers in Toledo, Cincinnati, and Grand Rapids.”

Quotes sports critic, George R. Pulford: “Tiger Flowers took seven of the ten rounds from Harry Greb at Fremont Thursday, winning the popular decision beyond all question of doubt, administering a boxing lesson to the middleweight champion before several thousand spectators and proving himself one of the world’s greatest and cleanest boxers….Flowers was out in front and going away. There wasn’t a single minute when Greb stacked up evenly with the Atlanta streak. He was out-boxed, out-punched, and out-speeded from gong to gong.”


Says Frank G. Menke: Flowers-Greb mix-up. Sports writers pick Flowers easy winner. Greb on defensive, interview with Greb, Palladium-Item (King Feature Syndicate), September 23, 1924

“Tiger Flowers is the unofficial middleweight champion of the universe, in the opinion of the vast majority of sporting editors who saw him punch and pound Harry Greb in Fremont, Ohio, a month ago.

After the fight, there was sent out of Fremont a story by a press association writer who stated that Greb won eight of the ten rounds. Of all the men who reported the fight, he was the only man who gave Greb any definite margin of victory.

Why that man sent out such a story--or through what sort of smoked glasses he viewed the fight--is one of those inexplicable mysteries of ringdom and press.
This is what James W. Schlemmer, sporting editor of the Akron, Ohio Press had to say about the affair:
"Flowers defeated Greb. He piled up enough points to make him stand out clearly as the better man. And Flowers did this despite the fac that Greb's very own hand picked referee, Eddie Kennedy, of Pittsburgh, was the third man in the ring. Kennedy was a farce.
"Flowers had the misfortune to have been born a colored man. Reputed to be the 'whitest black man in the game,' Flowers lived up to the reputation.
"Tiger got a square deal from most of the fans, but in the opinion of this writer, press correspondents from 'way down East,' and others who were prejudiced to the point of saying that Greb won eight rounds of the fight, are deliberately lying to save the reputation of a world's champ who was licked by a better man, and a colored one.

"Flowers didn't have a chance at the title Greb holds. The cards were stacked against this black man." ...
Head-line Favors Flowers.
The Toledo (Ohio) News-Bee carried an eight column first page headline after the fight which said: "Tiger Flowers Trounces Greb"

And **** Meade, its sporting editor in reviewing the melee, which he awarded to Flowers by a wide margin, said:
"Tiger Flowers forced Harry Greb to his utmost to keep himself from being annihilated..."

...
E.W. ****erson, famous referee and sporting editor of the Grand Rapids Herald, was at ringside. In his judgment Flowers won. After the battle he wrote a story which embraced an interview with Greb. This is what Greb said. “Flowers is the greatest boxer I ever faced in the ring. He can beat Heavyweight Champion Jack Dempsey in a contest of 10 rounds. He gave me a fight I will never forget and showed me a lot of things about boxing that I never knew before.

But in the face of all that, some press association reporter sent a story which was printed throughout the country, which stated that ‘Greb was an easy winner, scoring eight of the ten rounds.’

Why?”


FIGHT 2:

Davis J. Walsh, Flowers Wins Title in Rough-and-Tumble Scrap, Dayton Herald, Feb. 27, 1926:

“Some of the merry villagers seemed to think Greb was short-changed, but that idea was all to the falsetto. Flowers got the decision and earned it. He fought a courageous, if not a sensational fight, and outscored Greb in the majority of exchanges.”


Associated Press, 30-Year-Old Negro Dethrones Veteran Pittsburgh Boxer, Press and Sun-Bulletin (Feb. 27, 1926):

“Flowers, in the opinion of newspapermen, had at least six of the rounds, while Greb could muster no more than five and four were even.”

Associated Press, Tiger Flowers Wins Middleweight Crown, Boston Globe, Feb. 27, 1926:
“Boxing critics argued that the margin obtained by Flowers was too small for a title to change hands, although it was generally admitted that the negro had won under the rules of the New York State Athletic Commission, which provide that all bouts must be decided by rounds gained.”

Associated Press, Tiger Flowers Plans Trip to Europe for Exhibition Matches, Morning Call, Feb. 28, 1926
“Greb, whose unexpected defeat was attributed in some measure to careless training, today said he had no complaint to make and that he would endeavor to get back in winning form for a return bout with Flowers.”


Harry Keck, Ring Tradition Says Challenger Must Beat Champ to Win Title, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (Feb. 28, 1926)
(Pittsburgh writer Harry Keck scored the fight six rounds a piece with three even).

Paul Gallico, Just Another Post Mortem, New York Daily News (March 1, 1926):
"I scored the fight with Flowers winning by a shade, the shade being awarded him on his cleaner fighting and cleverer boxing. My actual round score gave six to Greb, six to Flowers, and three even, but the winner of the entire fight figured as a whole was Flowers."


Fight 3:

AP, Tiger Flowers Hangs on to Middleweight Ring Title, Baltimore Sun, August 20, 1926:

“Greb, withstanding a terrific body attack most of the way, flashed a sensational finish that had the Garden in a frenzy in the last two rounds, but this desperate rally was not sufficient to offset the big margin which the rugged Negro had piled up previously.

Although a majority of ringside critics gave Flowers a decisive margin on points, the official verdict was not unanimous. It was announced that both judges gave the decision to the champion, but that the referee, Jimmy Crowley, cast his ballot in Greb’s favor.

In the newspaper consensus, however, the Tiger was credited with winning eight of the fifteen rounds, with six going to Greb and one regarded as even.”



Ed Van Every, Tiger Flowers Retains Middle Title, Reading Times, August 20, 1926:

“I’ll say this much for the verdict—Flowers could not have lost his title on tonight’s hectic affair: I could not have given him worse than a draw.”

 

Goat comment

 

A lot of these werent even ringside accounts. In fact, those AP reports for the first Flowers fight originated from Walk Miller, Flowers manager. In short they were false. The AP had one writer there, James McGuire (who would later become famous for being the inspiration for "Call Northside 777") he was based out of Chicago and he thought Greb won. Of the ringside reports Flowers was judged the winner by the Fremont Daily News, Toledo Blade, Toledo News-Bee, Akron Press, and Columbus Citizen. Greb was judged the winner by the Columbus Evening Dispatch, Fremont Daily Messenger, Toledo Times, Detroit News, Sandusky Star Journal, Pittsburgh Gazette Times, Lorain Times, Tiffin Advertiser, Mansfield News, Pittsburgh Post, Fostoria Daily Review, Cleveland News, and Findlay Morning Republican. It was judged a draw by The Lima News, Grand Rapids Herald (E.R. Dickerson, contrary to what was posted above), and Sandusky Register. Frank Menke wasnt present at the fight. His article was a typical pot stirrer by him.