Does anyone believe Fraziers greatness took a hit with his losses to Foreman?

atta boy...

 

This.

If Dundee felt Liston had deliberately put something on his gloves he would have screamed bloody murder. As any good manager would.

 

No, but I hear he was really good at BEATING on bitches. Wanna ask his ex-wife?

Nor did Liston. And nobody has ever proved otherwise.

Sure it was. He threw the Billy Fox fight, didn't he?

I'll take a Liston who "bitched out" in a couple of fights to be the better man than someone who threw a fight, plus beat the hell out of his wife. I have to disagree with you here, my friend :smoke LaMotta isn't a better man than anyone in this equation.

 

Head-to-head, Joe Frazier is solidly in my 6-10 greatest heavyweight champions.

He is a clear underdog against only a very few unique punchers such as Foreman and Tyson. Otherwise, he stands a good chance against anyone, particularly the great boxers such as Ali (who he whipped) and Holmes.

The pressure he exerted was unique, as was his body attack, hooks, stamina and tremendous heart. In this last department, he is head and shoulders over the likes of Sonny Liston and Vitali Klitschko. A fight with Joe Frazier was a contest in which death itself was a real possibility, for either man.

Jamaica should not be made more than it was: Foreman had Frazier's number, due to that special punching power, shoving tactics and size. It does not mean Frazier sucks as an all-time great.

He gives Louis, Dempsey, Ali, Holmes, Liston, Marciano and Holyfield a night of reckoning.

 

What you said was:

That made it a question of character, not boxing. I just wondered why you felt that LaMotta was a better man than Liston. Because his personal life sure doesn't support such a contention.

But if you were referring to their integrity as fighters, that's a different story.

Anyway, cheers :cheers

 

As far as Ring and WBA combined , Frazier had 14 top ten wins, ALi (32) Foreman (8 before FOREMAN II) FALLACY:-La motta never ko'd his wife - she went the distance after a questionable knockdown Jake could not eat breakfast for he could not break an egg- watch him fight, not the movie! unlike his buddy Graziano (52 Knockouts) who could ruin your day!

Yes Frazier takes a hit vs Foreman (8 knockdowns)

Frazier's 'Ten Count'

Bonavena .....#9
Chuvalo ........#4
Mathis .........#10
Ramos .........#4
Bonavena .....#2
Zyglewicz ....#10
Quarry..........#2
Ellis.............WBA
Foster..........LHW
Ali................#1
Daniels........#10
Bugner..........#7
Quarry..........#3
Ellis..............#9

 

well not to nit pick but didn't lamotta take a dive against billy fox? KIND OF a ***** move

 

For one night he was.:good

 

I am continually amazed at the way Frazier is disparaged on this forum. He beat Ali in FOTC when Ali was still amazing; that is his unforgivable sin. He is routinely given no chance against modern, bigger Heavyweights but Ali is usually favoured even against giants like Lewis, Vlad and Vitali.

Neither Ali nor Frazier fought anyone with their combination of power, speed, size, strength etc but of the two, Ali triumphs and Frazier is destroyed. This based largely on Joe not being able to cope with the ridiculous power of George Foreman in top form! That's like saying Ali loses to Vlad because Frazier and Cooper floored him with left hooks and Vlad has a killer left hook.

Frazier at his absolute best would present problems for anybody but Foreman in my opinion. One final thing: If Frazier was so bad how come he beat Ali in FOTC and gave him hell in all 3 fights?

 

Amazing how the FOTC is forgotten....can't take away Frazier's greatness from that bout...once an ATG, always an ATG great!

 

Yes Frazier won the FOTC bout, and yes, he gave Ali hell in a couple of their fights, but also yes, his one sided loss to Foreman hurts his greatness. The simply truth is, fighters like Wlad and Lewis could duplicate Foreman's power and add reach and straight punches to the equation, these aren't fighters Frazier could coup with, but there's no shame in that, he's still an ATG fighter, these are just bad style match ups for him.

The main difference between Frazier and Ali, is it was demonstrated what a bad style match up Foreman was for Frazier but no one was really able to establish a bad style in which Ali couldn't prevail. That said, it could be argued that Norton did and that the two fighters I've mentioned namely Lewis and Wlad could in my opinion, beat Ali. Would they beat him, I don't know, but they certainly had the tools to say they could.

 

I assume you're not saying that because Frazier showed all-time greatness in the FOTC, that by itself makes him an ATG. If one fantastic performance against a very highly regarded opponent bought you ATG status, the list of ATGs would be considerably longer (i.e. Buster Douglas, Leon Spinks). There's a thread topic idea.

I assume you mean that all that with all Frazier accomplished in his career, and the FOTC is huge, George Foreman having his number doesn't reduce his ATG status.

I do think that Foreman's definitive victories over Joe hurts Frazier's ATG status a bit. A small bit, but a bit.