How legit is the heavyweight title before Johnson?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by kmac, Apr 18, 2015.


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  1. kmac

    kmac On permanent vacation Full Member

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    personally i have a hard time calling someone the "real" champion (in boxing or other sports) when a whole race of people were not allowed to compete for a title. in your opinion, how legit were the title claims by sullivan, corbett, fitz, jeffries, hart and burns? And then by later figthers who drew the color line like dempsey and tunney?

    not saying these guys aren't great fighters but when black guys can't fight for the title it's hard to call yourself "world champ."
     
    kmac, Apr 18, 2015
    kmac, Apr 18, 2015
    #1
  2. VVMM

    VVMM Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I have an idea.Don't call these guys champion and you'll be happy !
    At least you have a sovereign opinion. I can't see problem with
    this.
     
    VVMM, Apr 18, 2015
    VVMM, Apr 18, 2015
    #2
  3. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Sullivan, Fitz and Jeffries certainly seemed to be the best of their eras.
     
    Seamus, Apr 18, 2015
    Seamus, Apr 18, 2015
    #3
  4. Vince Voltage

    Vince Voltage Boxing Addict Full Member

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    To me the heavyweight title isn't at all legit until Joe Louis came along. It wasn't until the Louis era that there was some degree of racial fairness in the division.
     
    Vince Voltage, Apr 18, 2015
    Vince Voltage, Apr 18, 2015
    #4
  5. Surf-Bat

    Surf-Bat Boxing Addict Full Member

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    From what I can see, there were some good black HW fighters but Peter Jackson was the only one who legitimately deserved a title shot before Johnson. If someone wants to deny that all HW champs from Fitz-Burns were illegitimate because of Sullivan not fighting Jackson they are free to do so (though I think it a tad silly).
     
    Surf-Bat, Apr 18, 2015
    Surf-Bat, Apr 18, 2015
    #5
  6. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    Why? Johnson drew the color line as well, because more money in a black champ fighting white hopes. Its always about the dollars, don't recognize one, don't recognize any.
     
    The Mongoose, Apr 18, 2015
    The Mongoose, Apr 18, 2015
    #6
  7. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    No "world champion" has ever literally defeated every other fighter in the world, so none of them are entirely legit.

    It's just a title really, and some men live up to it more than others. :deal
     
    Unforgiven, Apr 18, 2015
    Unforgiven, Apr 18, 2015
    #7
  8. Arminius

    Arminius Member Full Member

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    John L. Sullivan is an iconic figure. He is regarded as the first heavyweight champion. He started in bare knuckle and moved to gloves. Jack Dempsey's mother use to read to young Jack stories about John L.
     
    Arminius, Apr 19, 2015
    Arminius, Apr 19, 2015
    #8
  9. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You're clearly right to. And it's silly to make light of this concern.
     
    Bokaj, Apr 19, 2015
    Bokaj, Apr 19, 2015
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  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    It's a fair point, but aside from Peter Jackson it's hard to see which black challenger in this period was prevented from lifting the title (though of course you never know).

    However black contenders were much worse off in the Johnson era. McVey, Jeanette and especially Langford all very clearly deserved a shot at the title.

    Dempsey has Wills.

    Louis has Elmar Ray, perhaps.

    Ali was stripped of the title for holding religious beliefs caught up in "blackness".

    Extrapolating the point, you could legitimately argue that the heavyweight championship operated free of racial prejudice from Foreman's first reign onwards, only.
     
    McGrain, Apr 19, 2015
    McGrain, Apr 19, 2015
    #10
  11. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    The world heavyweight title was originally established by unifying the British and American titles.

    If you accept that premise, then it is pretty legitimate.

    I think that the key players when it was established were white fighters, and the strong black contenders emerged a bit later.
     
    janitor, Apr 19, 2015
    janitor, Apr 19, 2015
    #11
  12. LittleRed

    LittleRed Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Can I say that I don't consider everyone from Ali to Tyson legit because the Soviet union and Cuba weren't allowed to compete.
     
    LittleRed, Apr 19, 2015
    LittleRed, Apr 19, 2015
    #12
  13. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Lennox Lewis is ths first legit champ. By that point, the Eastern bloc heavies were integrated into the division.
     
    Seamus, Apr 19, 2015
    Seamus, Apr 19, 2015
    #13
  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    In that case, wouldn't champions prior to the Russian revolution of 1917 be legit?
     
    janitor, Apr 19, 2015
    janitor, Apr 19, 2015
    #14
  15. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Only White Army.
     
    Seamus, Apr 19, 2015
    Seamus, Apr 19, 2015
    #15
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