Max Schmeling vs. Sonny Liston

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by IntentionalButt, Apr 27, 2015.


Page 5 of 8
  1. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

    58,748
    21,583
    Nov 24, 2005
    Yeah, DeJohn didn't deserve a mention.

    Anyway the poll is pretty clear.
    I think Schmeling's being greatly underrated, Liston vastly overrated.
     
    Unforgiven, Apr 28, 2015
    Unforgiven, Apr 28, 2015
    #61
    Pedro_El_Chef likes this.
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,408
    48,821
    Mar 21, 2007
    It's basically because Chuvalo named him one of the best punchers he ever fought and claimed he had parity with George Foreman as a puncher and because Charlie Powell echoed these sentiments.

    It just *****s up the ears. Hence, "may."

    In the end, I don't think it really matters, at all, but there it is.
     
    McGrain, Apr 29, 2015
    McGrain, Apr 29, 2015
    #62
  3. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

    403,110
    84,972
    Nov 30, 2006
    That's all solid testimony, but we're not comparing him to just any Tom Richard (word filter :oops:) or Harry in Max.

    That's a grade A hard puncher (not just "above-average" or "yeah, can whack a bit"), right there, I didn't think anyone considered him anything less.


    ...and combined with his ring brain, of course, that makes him a zillion times more dangerous than a Mike DeJohn.
     
    IntentionalButt, Apr 29, 2015
    IntentionalButt, Apr 29, 2015
    #63
    Pedro_El_Chef likes this.
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,408
    48,821
    Mar 21, 2007
    Yeah, plus Max might hit harder. Legitimately harder. And if he doesn't, he's better at landing meaningful punches, which is far, far more important.

    Hence, "I don't think it really matters."
     
    McGrain, Apr 29, 2015
    McGrain, Apr 29, 2015
    #64
    Pedro_El_Chef likes this.
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,408
    48,821
    Mar 21, 2007
    My final word is that DeJohn might hit literally twice as hard as Schmeling but his chances of KOing Liston will remain close to zero. Schmeling, I bet, could knock Liston out something like 1/4.
     
    McGrain, Apr 29, 2015
    McGrain, Apr 29, 2015
    #65
  6. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,851
    29,304
    Jun 2, 2006
    No it doesn't matter, except some claim Liston never met a puncher like Schmeling.
     
    mcvey, Apr 29, 2015
    mcvey, Apr 29, 2015
    #66
  7. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

    403,110
    84,972
    Nov 30, 2006

    Different statements though. Not as worded, perhaps, but just applying horse sense..

    Face value, saying "Liston never met a raw puncher like Schmeling (which you can debate whether DeJohn is or isn't, personally I don't see evidence that he was)" is different from the implicit parsing of that into "Liston never met anyone whose punches could have a conceivable effect on him - and by extension, maybe the outcome - in the course of a fight than Schmeling" - which is a mouthful, and easier stated (and pretty much understood by most) the former way, and to which "but...Mike DeJohn?" is an inappropriate response.
     
    IntentionalButt, Apr 29, 2015
    IntentionalButt, Apr 29, 2015
    #67
    Pedro_El_Chef likes this.
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,408
    48,821
    Mar 21, 2007
    Maybe Patterson hits as hard as Max? If people prefer statistical evidence, it certainly exists.
     
    McGrain, Apr 29, 2015
    McGrain, Apr 29, 2015
    #68
  9. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

    403,110
    84,972
    Nov 30, 2006
    Fair shout. The gazelle might trump MS' right, punch for punch.

    Who don't we presume Max stops, though?

    Ingo? McNeeley? Cooper? I am inclined to heavily favor him to stop all three, myself.
     
    IntentionalButt, Apr 29, 2015
    IntentionalButt, Apr 29, 2015
    #69
    Pedro_El_Chef likes this.
  10. sauhund II

    sauhund II Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,511
    2,208
    Nov 8, 2008
    LOL, let me give you just six names, Tyson, Foreman , VK/WK, Ali, Holmes where Schmeling has zero chance of winning and against two of those he would be lucky to see the third
     
    sauhund II, Apr 29, 2015
    sauhund II, Apr 29, 2015
    #70
  11. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

    403,110
    84,972
    Nov 30, 2006
    Two of whom revere him as their idol and have gone on record stating he would defeat both of them. :roll:

    I know, I know, we're supposed to always take gushy statements like that from latter-era greats about their predecessors with a grain of salt with the assumption they're just "being respectful" (i.e. Tyson saying he'd be terrified of Dempsey) but still.
     
    IntentionalButt, Apr 29, 2015
    IntentionalButt, Apr 29, 2015
    #71
    Pedro_El_Chef likes this.
  12. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,986
    1,266
    Sep 5, 2011
    He might, but he never really hit Liston.

    Would Liston get rid of Schmeling before Max got rolling?

    If not, though, I think Schmeling would test his whiskers a lot more than anyone except perhaps Ali.

    *Another thing to consider is that Liston's sideways stance and drive the jab allowed him to see left hooks coming. Williams and DeJohn had the left hook as their best punch.

    Schmeling has the right cross, just the punch that Liston might not see coming the same way Louis didn't.
     
    edward morbius, Apr 29, 2015
    edward morbius, Apr 29, 2015
    #72
    Pedro_El_Chef likes this.
  13. sauhund II

    sauhund II Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,511
    2,208
    Nov 8, 2008
    Tyson and Foreman would walk right over him, get real, would not matter which Schmeling showed up....I would not be surprised if they get it done in one.
     
    sauhund II, Apr 29, 2015
    sauhund II, Apr 29, 2015
    #73
  14. The Long Count

    The Long Count Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    15,447
    8,911
    Oct 8, 2013
    If Schmeling could knock out Joe Louis he could knock out Sonny Liston. Not saying he would but it is in the realm of possibility.
    I don't care how many right hands it took for Max to knock out Louis, who else knocked out a prime Louis??
    Max is the only man to stop 200 + hof fighter Young Stribling.
    The only man to stop Steve Hamas
    The only man to stop prime Risko- who fought Everyone!
    Max was a great puncher.
    Liston got dropped by Ali - I think it was legit knockdown(flash) why he stayed down is a mystery but if Ali can floor him with a single shot so could Max.
    I understand the way the poll is leaning- Liston had a very physically imposing build and destroyed some very capable opponents. However I don't think this is a lock for him. Would I favor him yes but not enough to wager on it.
    Asfor the Max vs Larry Gains fight - max was outweighed by two stone and was only 19 years old fighting a 23 year old that is a wide gap in maturity let alone the additional fight experience Larry possessed. Max had he not been ripped off against Sharkey in the rematch was looking forward to defending against Gains according to several reports. I think the result may have been much different second time around. As Gains was older and subsequently losing to several Max victims like Ben Foord and Walter Neusal.
     
    The Long Count, Apr 29, 2015
    The Long Count, Apr 29, 2015
    #74
    Pedro_El_Chef likes this.
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,408
    48,821
    Mar 21, 2007
    I think he landed a nice uppercut very early in the first fight which is only visible from the lower angle.

    But I don't really understand what this chat is about. Liston's chin is not really being called into question, surely? Is the idea that Schmeling is going to knock him out with one punch? That's not really an idea I would take seriously TBH, any more than I would believe it of any puncher v any fighter, which means there is a chance but it diminishes significantly with class and punch resistance of the punchee.

    Can he ware him down with punches? Absolutely. I wouldn't expect Liston to "get rid of Max before Schmeling got rolling" though. I can't imagine that happening at all. I think either Max won't get rolling because Liston has superb head movement, superb upper body movement, superb parrying skills and his boxing offence or, and I feel it is less likely, Schmeling gets rolling, Liston recognises the fact and comes for him. Before he comes for him he might try what he did with Machen, and that might or might not work.

    I suspect Liston will have the time and he certainly has the adaptability.
     
    McGrain, Apr 29, 2015
    McGrain, Apr 29, 2015
    #75
Page 5 of 8