Should Louis have fought more than two black men in his 26 title defenses?

Which one was your favourite?

 

What do you make of the fact that the Roswell incident, happened during Joe Louis's title reign!

 

I think it was hugely significant.:deal

 

Joe Louis had plenty of black friends. Shut up.

 

[yt]4p7CRVnL0a8[/yt]

:good

 

"Interim champ"

There were millions of men, most of whom were in their prime years, who were in the service from 1942 to 1945. There was no big secret that sports competition collapsed. A one-armed man made the major leagues as an outfielder during the war.

Why was boxing different? It wasn't. Clearly all sorts of champions and top contenders, plus many of the rising next generation, were in the service.

So the men who dominated the weakened heavyweight division of the war era had to prove themselves when peace came and the soldiers returned. Competition was much more stiff from 1946 to 1949.

Well, how did they do.

Melio Bettina had been beaten by Billy Conn twice, and even by bum-of-the-month club member Al McCoy before the war. During the war years, only Bivins defeated him--going one win, one loss, and one draw with Bettina--and Bettina looked like a great fighter. He entered the service near the end of the war, came back to tune up with a few set-ups in 1946, and then was matched with pre-war champion Gus Lesnevich in early 1947. Bettina was KO'd in less than a minute.

Tami Mauriello had looked good before the war, and during the war lost a couple of close fights to Bivins while still a teenager. He also lost a couple of others, but had a whole bunch of wins, including enough in 1946 to get a shot at Louis. He went out in one. In 1947 Tami fought and lost to Lesnevich twice, the second by KO.

Bivins was the best of them but the wins over Charles and Moore might look better on paper at heavyweight than they would have been viewed back in the forties. Charles weighed 165 when Bivins beat him in 1943, and lost more decisively that year to Lloyd Marshall. Moore weighed 168 to Bivins' 186 when Bivins beat him in 1945. No one knew how great these men would become. At the time it was a couple of wins over promising super-middleweights. After the war with the stronger competition, Bivins just didn't seem to have it against the better men. He fought Walcott, Charles, Moore, Maxim, Johnson, and Louis 11 times and lost all eleven.

Age in 1946 doesn't really explain what happened to these three. Bettina was 30, the same age as Lesnevich. Bivins was 26. Mauriello was 23. Lee Murray, Turkey Thompson, and Curtis Sheppard also had similar spotty post-war records.

My conclusion is that the reputations of all of these men is clouded by the weakness of the wartime competition.

Charles, Walcott, and Elmer Ray, who peaked in 1946 or later are different cases.

 

Another well considered post, I am impressed!:good

 

A brilliant ****ysis, even if I disagree with some of it.

Louis was basically a T rex, in a world where the biggest predator was a lion.

 

Yes but the point is that Franklin shouldn't have had to fight Pastor. Louis should have taken on the winner of the Simon-Franklin fight.. not the lose. But as Ed Morbius already explained, it was for business and political reasons that Simon got the shot.

 

"Wlad"

Okay,

This is the list of men Wlad has defended his various titles against. It is a rather impressive and long list.

Derreck Jefferson, Charles Sufford, Francois Botha, Ray Mercer, Jameel McCline, Corrie Sanders, Fabio Mali, Danell Nicholson, Lamon Brewster, Chris Byrd, Calvin Brock, Ray Austin, Lamon Brewster, Sultan Ibraginov, Tony Thompson, Hasim Rahman, Ruslan Chagaev, Eddie Chambers, Samuel Peter, David Haye, Jean-Mark Mormeck, Tony Thompson, Marias Wach, Francesco Pianeta, Alex Leapai, Kubrat Pulev, Bryant Jennings

(my apologies for any misspellings or other mistakes, but I think this is close to correct)

Between 1882 and 1956, the heavyweight title was held by among others,

John L. Sullivan, Jim Corbett, Jim Jeffries, Marvin Hart, Jess Willard, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Jack Sharkey, Max Baer, Jimmy Braddock, and Rocky Marciano

all white Americans,

for 42 out of 74 years.

The other champions, Fitz, Burns, Johnson, Schmeling, Carnera, Louis, Charles, and Walcott

all defended against white Americans.

Now why in all these defenses hasn't Wlad defended even once against a white American?

By your logic, isn't this proof Wlad is ducking white American heavyweights?

The problem is no champion can defend against what isn't there?

Certainly black Americans (and black fighters generally) were a potential talent pool in the 1930's when the exceptionally talented Louis managed to vault the color line, but it appears to me, in all fairness, that black heavyweights were not an actual major talent pool at heavyweight until several years into Louis reign. Toles was the only rated black heavyweight from 1937 to 1939.

Yes, Franklin emerged in 1941, but he went out of contention in 1942.

The rest were war-era contenders who for the most part couldn't hold their positions after Louis returned in 1946. Of the ones who performed well, Walcott, Charles, and Ray, Walcott and Charles did fight Louis for the title.

Why was the black talent pool untapped? It takes training and management to bring out talent. Why would a top trainer work with a black fighter who would never get into the big money or even any money?

The pre-Louis Depression years were probably the nadir of opportunities for black fighters as the little money that was about was likely to go the white fighters flooding the boxing market because of the job shortages.

Bottom line--"half the talent" is not true.

 

"Franklin shouldn't have had to fight Pastor."

Conn had to fight Pastor before getting a shot at Louis.

Nova had to come through Max Baer.

*It is possible Jacobs was grooming Franklin for a major summer fight against Louis at one of the big ballparks.

There seems to have been two levels of championship fights in that era. The winter indoor fights against second-tier contenders which drew much smaller gates,

and the big summer fights at Yankee Stadium and the like which drew the big gates. These ballpark contenders had to be proven top level challengers. Conn proved himself against Pastor. Nova against Baer. Both drew big gates at the Polo Grounds.

A win over Pastor would prove Franklin a really formidable challenger, not just a guy who could blow out fringe contenders like Simon and Musto, or an at that point promising light-heavy like Bivins.

 

There were already some who believed him to be a "formidable" challenger, as verified by some of the articles posted on here over the years. What Franklin's handlers had in mind for him, I don't know. But his fighting Pastor likely had more to do with the fact that an offer to fight Louis simply wasn't on the table. If it were, no manager with any savvy for business would have risked blowing a shot at the champion to face a formidable contender. Franklin fought Pastor because Louis had already agreed to fight Simon and for the reasons that you explained earlier.