Should Louis have fought more than two black men in his 26 title defenses?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, May 8, 2015.


  1. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,986
    1,262
    Sep 5, 2011
    Here's the 1947 Ring Magazine yearly rankings

    Champion---Joe Louis

    1----Jersey Joe Walcott
    2----Elmer Ray*
    3----Lee Q. Murray*
    4----Pat Comiskey
    5----Joe Baksi*
    6----Tommy Gomez*
    7----Joey Maxim*
    8----Turkey Thompson
    9----Bruce Woodc-ck
    10---Phil Muscato

    *Walcott had already beaten

    Walcott had beaten Ray two of three, had beaten Maxim two of three, and had beaten Murray, Baksi, and Gomez

    Other than Walcott, whom he had lost two of three to, the only other 1947 ranked contender he had fought was Thompson, who he fought a ND with and suffered a one round KO defeat to back in 1943.

    Also, Walcott also had wins over Jimmy Bivins, Curtis Sheppard, and Lee Oma, who were ranked in 1945 or 1946.

    I don't think there is much question who was the more qualified contender.

    In fairness, Ray did have a win over Charles who was still at light-heavyweight, and Savold, while not rated between 1944 and 1947, had been a ranked fighter in the early forties.
     
  2. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,986
    1,262
    Sep 5, 2011
    "Winning 50 straight fights with 44 KO's was unheard of in those days"

    It sure was, because top men were expected to fight other top men, not pad their record on tomato cans like Ray did

    Checking boxrec

    of those 50 wins,

    20 were against fighters with losing records

    12 were against fighters with less than 10 victories

    6 were against fighters who had had less than 10 fights

    6 were against fighters with less than 5 victories.

    2 were against a fellow with no official victories who had been stopped 7 times in 8 fights back in the 1920's, but was pulled out of the fistic graveyard to be KO'd not once, but twice, by Ray in 1945. There must have been a lot of demand for that rematch.

    As far as I can tell, only Walcott of all these fifty fights was a ranked fighter. I think Savold was not ranked when he met Ray.

    The last ranked fighter Ray had fought prior to meeting Walcott was, I think, Thompson back in 1943. Thompson had KO'd Ray in one round.

    Off boxrec, the Walcott fight was as close as it could get, two officials splitting 5-4-1, and the third having it 5-5 in rounds, but giving Ray a 9-8 edge in points. Okay, fair enough, Ray won.

    But, Ray had been KO'd by Walcott in the old days, and Walcott had beaten all kinds of top contenders like Bivins, Baksi, and Murray.

    In their next fights Walcott reversed his earlier loss to Maxim, and Ray fought another of his losing record fighters.

    Everyone has their own point of view, but I don't think it was a great injustice that there was a rubber match.

    While close, Walcott won a bit more decisively in the rubber match with a majority decision than Ray had earlier,

    and then went on to beat Maxim in their rubber match to earn his deserved shot at Louis.
     
  3. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,986
    1,262
    Sep 5, 2011
    "some"

    don't matter. Would he have been viewed by the general public as a formidable opponent for Louis just off a KO of Simon, who, as you pointed out in an earlier post, had won only 2 of 5 fights going into his fight with Franklin.

    Simon was second tier, and so were Musto, and Sheppard at this point. Bivins was still a lightheavy.

    A win over Pastor would have given Franklin real credentials for a challenge against Louis.
     
  4. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,786
    29,190
    Jun 2, 2006
    Difference being Walcott floored Ray in his win.
     
  5. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,986
    1,262
    Sep 5, 2011
    What is missing here is any reason for Jacobs to sidetrack Franklin. Louis had been champion for several years and had pretty much beaten all the contenders. If Franklin upended Louis, there was not only a lucrative rematch, but all the white fighters like Conn, Nova, and the Baers who had fallen to Louis could be brought back for shots at the new champ.

    I think Jacobs motive was more likely to get a win for Franklin that would really impress the boxing crowd and fatten the gate for a Louis-Franklin fight.

    I see no reason for Jacobs to want to protect Louis. He undoubtedly could have gotten an exclusive promotion contract with Franklin.
     
  6. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,786
    29,190
    Jun 2, 2006
    George Godfrey was 40 years old when Louis won the title and one other thing, he retired 12 days before Louis fought Braddock.:patsch
     
  7. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,620
    27,306
    Feb 15, 2006
    Lets put it this way.

    People would have been right to criticize Louis, if he had fought anybody other than Walcott.

    Walcott almost cleaned out the post 1945 contenders.
     
  8. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,786
    29,190
    Jun 2, 2006
    Tiger Ted Lowry had 39 fights in which he was anywhere near a heavyweight during Louis's reign.He won 17 and lost 19..
     
  9. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,786
    29,190
    Jun 2, 2006
    Lou Brooks career was from May 1941 until June 1943 his record is W28 L14.
     
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,786
    29,190
    Jun 2, 2006
    Big Boy Brown won a total of 14 fights out of 38.
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,786
    29,190
    Jun 2, 2006
    Leroy Haynes had 20 fights during Louis's reign, he lost 15 and won 5.
     
  12. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,786
    29,190
    Jun 2, 2006
    Clayton Worlds had 22 fights during Louis's reign, he won 18 and lost 12.
     
  13. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,685
    18,537
    Jun 25, 2014

    Again ... RING MAGAZINE didn't control boxing. RING MAGAZINE's ratings held no more sway than Boxing Illustrated's ratings did.

    RING MAGAZINE was just a magazine ... like it is now.

    THE NATIONAL BOXING ASSOCIATION (NBA) ruled boxing and its ratings were all that mattered.

    Again, here are the first NBA ratings for 1946.

    http://postimg.org/image/6frxzksvl/full/

    The NBA didn't name Jimmy Bivins the "Duration" champ ... RING did. It meant nothing.

    Joe Louis fought who the NBA told him to fight ... not who RING Magazine told him to fight.

    I don't know why you guys are harping on Ring Magazine so much. Boxing Illustrated has been around longer than Ring. They had their own ratings, too. And their ratings didn't matter any more than Ring's ratings did.

    The NBA ratings were all that mattered.
     
  14. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,786
    29,190
    Jun 2, 2006
    Jack Trammel won13 of his 24 fights during Louis's reign.
     
  15. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,620
    27,306
    Feb 15, 2006
    There are about five guys on that list, who might have been a credible challenger at some point.