Should Louis have fought more than two black men in his 26 title defenses?

So what exactly is the point?

Louis didn't have to fight anyone at all in early 1942. He did so out of patriotism and donated his purse to the government.

He fought Simon for nothing!!

I really don't care how unqualified Simon was.

As for Franklin, he was a flash in the pan. Matched with a man who had been KO'd by both Louis and Conn, he was destroyed, and went into a tailspin. By the summer of 1942 he was being blown out by the third-level trial horse Joe Muscato in the first round.

As no one is disputing that Simon under normal circumstances should not have gotten a title match, what exactly is the issue.

Louis should have defended his title against Franklin for nothing?

 

And for about the tenth time I understand this, or should I plan to repeat it in the future?

Apparently some people do or this thread would be a lot shorter.

The hindsight of the matter means nothing to me.. If it had any value what so ever we should penalize Holmes for ever having faced Gerry C00ney, or any other heavyweight champion for facing qualified men who fizzled shortly thereafter.

People were.. and that is the issue.

I certainly would have hoped that he'd receive a purse for his efforts but if not then why fight simon for nothing?

 

"None of those men were itching to get into the ring with him."

You said they ducked him. All did in fact get into the ring with him.

"Franklin"

How qualified was he? Fair in late 1941, but the big name in retrospect is Bivins, who was beaten in his next fight by Musto and was a lightheavy. A lot of guys have been more qualified over the years.

Like perhaps Tony Shucco.

Over his career Shucco was 88-16-10, a pretty good winning percentage for that era.

He defeated--Maxie Rosenbloom, Jimmy Braddock, Al Gainer, Bob Olin, Lee Ramage, Tuffy Griffiths, Lou Brouillard, Joe Knight, Jack Sharkey, Harry Bobo, and Buddy Walker,

and drew in 1938 with Tiger Jack Fox

Overall, this fellow had a much better career than Franklin, but was pretty much ignored. But he was on a winning streak, and handed the then unbeaten and #5 ranked heavyweight Buddy Walker three defeats in 1941.

Why wasn't Shucco ever given a shot?

But no one will ever bring this issue up because Shucco can't be used as a racial club to beat Louis with.

 

"why fight Simon for nothing?"

Frankly, because Simon wasn't that much of a threat. Do you expect a champion to put his title on the line for nothing against a dangerous foe?

That is expecting a great deal.

 

"people were, and that is the issue"

This on Simon deserving the 1942 title fight.

Curiously, could you tell me which post this was and I'll study it.

 

The main reason, was because Simon was a big draw to be honest.

They needed to throw together a charity fight quickly, and the questions were:

Who is available?

Who will draw a big gate where the fight can be made?

 

I never specifically mentioned their names at all. You did.

This a rather convenient way to brush aside the fact that he had twice beaten Simon who ended up in the ring with Louis for the second time, which is the very crux of the issue.


A lot of guys have been more qualified over the years.

My response was directed at your question weather or not he was more deserving than Louis who had to fight Schmeling when he was #1... I then asked, why compare him to the exception and not the norm... and proceeded to ask if you felt that Franklin was more qualified than at least HALF or MORE of the men who fought for the title in heavyweight history.. A simple yes or no would have sufficed, as I can think of other examples myself.. No need to go off topic about it.

 

Yes of course.

 

"the hindsight of the matter means nothing to me"

It does to me. Why should we trash Louis on the basis of not fighting a guy who was not the number one contender and who fell apart when he was matched with tougher opponents?

 

"a simple yes or no would have sufficed"

Okay.

No.

 

"Elmer (Violent) Ray has the extraordinary distinction of being the only man Joe Louis wouldn't even meet in an exhibition. Louis boxed Dan Merritt of Cleveland instead, and stood watching as Ray, a crowding weaver and bobber with the speed of a swift middleweight, ironed out Claudio Villar, a Spaniard, in 29 seconds flat.”
"

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rejected guarantees to square off with Ray at Madison square Garden, Lee Oma the Violent One's share of the swag in addition to his own.

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and

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refused.

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will have nothing to do with the Hastings Hammerer.

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turned down the chance to march front and center with him in Los Angeles, where the terror recorded 19 knockouts in a row. The current Joe Walcott will have no truck with him in Baltimore... Currently he is drawing and at Miami's Negro ball yard, Dorsey Park, while putting the slug on such as Dan Merritt and Al Patterson, the latter a slatty character out of Pittsburgh. "It's better than wrestlingalligators and fighting nine guys at once," beams Violent Ray."
-The Coshocton Tribune, March 8, 1946




"None of the near-name heavies wants any part of Ray, who in a New Orleans battle royal knocked out nine opponents with one hand tied behind his back....in doing so he made of Elmer Ray a modern Sam Langford. You remember the Boston Tar Baby. He was a guy heavyweight champion Jack Johnson dodged and dodged during the six years he held the title some three decades ago. Langford tried desperately to get a bout with the champ, but Johnson never would have a part of him. Louis is that way with Ray. It’s silly to say that Louis, the man who has made so many valiant defenses of the crown, is afraid of Elmer. But it is a fact that he won’t fight the burley puncher from Hastings, Florida."
-Middlesboro Daily News, July 26, 1947

 

Interesting article. I wish you had posted it earlier !!!! Perhaps some of the so called " record padding" that people here have accused Ray of had more to do with the more qualified contenders wanting nothing to do with him.. Well done Sir Q..

 

Louis took just training expenses for both the Baer and Simon fights and both challengers donated percentage of their purses.

 

I seriously doubt that you'd come up with a more than 50 percentile range of contenders who were more deserving when you consider all the Ropers, carpentiers, Wepners, Evangelistas, Leapais, and coopers who got title shots over the past century... There were a lot of those guys..