Your ATG top 25???

Disclaimer: I think these lists tend to incite less uproar from the masses if you use a somewhat recent cutoff date but, f*ck it, this is mine, you can have yours.

1.) Sam Langford
2.) Sugar Ray Robinson
3.) Henry Armstrong
4.) Harry Greb
5.) Bob Fitzsimmons
6.) Joe Louis
7.) Ezzard Charles
8.) Muhammad Ali
9.) Willie Pep
10.) Roberto Duran
11.) Joe Gans
12.) Benny Leonard
13.) Tony Canzoneri (perhaps a little higher than most, but a close look reveals some truly amazing accomplishments)
14.) Archie Moore
15.) Mickey Walker (I see a lot of arguments that he should be considerably higher than Canzoneri and there are countless people out there with more boxing knowledge than me who think this. They may well be right. But after studying the careers of each man with great intent I feel Canzoneri edges Walker. Feel free to protest, I am open to arguments on this and would be happy to offer up my thought process as to why I have Tony a few spots higher.)
16.) Packey MacFarland
17.) Gene Tunney
18.) Sugar Ray Leonard.
19.) Jersey Joe Walcott (might be a little high here. Again, feel free to counter)
20.) Billy Conn
21.) Barney Ross
22.) Pernell Whitaker
23.) Terry McGovern
24.) Floyd Mayweather
25.) Julio Caesar Chavez Sr.

Keep in mind that it's f*cking difficult to do this and I am almost certainly going to p*ss some people off. The more casual fans will likely write off my list entirely or accuse me of historical snobbery or nostalgia or something of the sort. I wanted very badly to find a spot for Hagler, Pacquiao, Roy Jones Jr., Calzaghe, Arguello and many other fighters that I have actually had the pleasure of enjoying during my lifetime. The historians among you will likely argue that George Dixon, Jimmy McLarnin, Jack Dempsey and countless others are being shamelessly omitted.

But this is a list I've been maintaining rather meticulously for some time now and I've used a combination of H2H and P4P ability and warrior spirit to determine rank. Before all the people who hate Floyd or love Manny crucify me for ranking Floyd and not Manny after I said that I factored warrior spirit, please let me explain.

I am absolutely, positively NOT a Floyd Mayweather fan, any of the actual Mayweather fans on this forum will tell you that. As a person, I find him despicable. I do not remember the last time I watched a Floyd Mayweather fight and was rooting for him to win, it was probably as far back as the Chico Corrales fight when Chico was the one being accused of domestic abuse.

I love fighters who take on all challenges at all times, it's the reason I have Duran highest amongst all of the 'modern' fighters. I have a special place in my heart for the fighters who want to face the best man and do not look to leverage star power into an advantage in the ring. That is a big part of the reason I have Langford above Robinson. In many ways, one could argue that Floyd has been the antithesis of that ideal. But at the same time, when it came to the greatest fighters of this era, I had to use my eyes and try to objectively assess. P4P, I do believe Floyd is the greatest fighter since 1995 (when Pernell's form was in decline and Floyd's pro career was just about to begin). From the time Floyd rose to prominence (after the Genaro win) there has not been a single fighter at his weight class or within a single weight class of the weight he is predominantly campaigning at that point in his career that I would have favored against him (whether the fight was actually made or not). Much as I dislike him as a man and can't stand many of his fans who seemingly cannot stop calling him "the best ever" simply because they have a determined lack of appreciation for the history of the sport, the fact remains that in the last 20 years there has not been a single man I would favor against him within his weight class or the ones immediately above or below. That tells me an awful lot.

Well, I'm putting myself out there for crucifixion, have at me.

:conf

 

I fear I am going to live to regret posting this when all the casuals are referencing it a year from now like Hans does to Ellerbe with the Brook/Porter thread...

I'll be getting messages everywhere I go saying... "HOW COULD YOU NOT HAVE HOPKINS TOP 3!! ARE YOU AN IDIOT?? AND NO TYSON??? :rofl :rofl :rofl"

 

We all know you're Hans' secret crush.

 

The Ali/Louis and Floyd/Pernell debates would take me a 100 page thesis to explain my position on but I will just say that I am very steadfast in those opinions. Particularly when it comes to rating Louis above Ali.

SRL: He's a very tricky one, I've ranked him as high as 14 and as low as 26 or so. I'd say my most common ranking for him has been in the 21-23 range. So my opinion on him in a historical context is obviously constantly evolving as I try to get down to the actual truth about his career and particularly his matchmaking timing and demands. I actually am of the opinion that he should have lost the 2nd Hearns fight AND the Hagler fight. Perhaps a certain amount of s****ust is clouding my thinking again as I slotted him into the top 20 this time. I hate to admit it but a small part of me was worried about the backlash from not putting him in the top 20. At his best he was a marvel and he had the misfortune of being robbed of some of his prime years. Sometimes the air of mystery plays a bigger role than it ought to in these things. I just think that at WW, he was a very special phenom indeed.

I realize my list is rather heavily skewed toward olden times, particularly the top 10. Certainly matchmaking in 1905 did not have the same considerations and complications that it does today. But we'd be remiss to think that there were not still fighters ducking other fighters back then. To take perhaps the most famous example, you'll note that Jack Johnson did not make my list. That was in large part due to the fact that the Johnson infamously never gave Langford a shot at his World Heavyweight Title after Langford gave him a run for his money (there are conflicting reports on how close the fight actually was but after reading as many accounts as I can find on the matter over the years, it seems that the fight was in fact close and perhaps even controversial) for his "Colored Heavyweight Title" in 1906 while being outweighed by Johnson by something like 155 to 190. So while the era did tend to lend itself more toward the 'warrior spirit' and it is entirely possible that I'm overestimating the importance of that component, I've done my best and put a lot of thought into differentiating between the truest warriors of yesteryear.

 

I didn't know you ever had any conflict with thurmanthegoat. I'm not familiar enough with him to remember if he's a troll or not.

Either way, let's see your list, mate!

 

Fair enough :good

 

BTW, I just started chatting with him recently for the first time. But this poster 'Oxygene2' who has commented on this thread is a very good poster with some very interesting threads and overall just a very level headed chap. I think you'd like his "top 5 in each category thread".

 

:rofl:rofl

Well f*ck me.

Touche.