Do you hold it against Larry Holmes for not fighting Greg Page

Larry was IBF champ by the time Thomas beat Witherspoon for the WBC title. I remember a lot of talk of Larry unifying with WBA champ. Coetzee, but little talk of a Thomas/Holmes unification.

 

Anthony was disqualified, but yes, Weaver suffered the physical effects just like a legal ko.

 

If the WBA had automatically given Holmes recognition, then no one would have made money. 80,000+ people were at the Coetzee vs. Tate fight in SA. That's A LOT of money.

Of course they probably could have made even more money if it had been Coetzee vs. Holmes, but presumably the South African promoters wanted someone that their boy had some sort of chance against. Even though Coetzee lost, it was a lot closer than it would have been against Holmes.

Plus, Holmes might have refused to fight in SA. He hadn't become as publicly vocal about boycotting SA back in '80, but that doesn't mean he wasn't already opposed to fighting there. Even if he did agree to fight there, it would have caused problems with the WBC, because Suleiman was already outspoken about boycotting SA back then.

 

Great. Please post your thoughts about it as you read it on the Jack Johnson thread.

 

Will do!:good

 

Agree strongly on both points: Page was the best fighter Larry never fought, but it wasn't a "duck." I think Holmes would fight anyone, to be honest.

As an aside, of all the unfulfilled promise in the 1980s heavyweight division, Page is the one I'll always wonder about. His raw talent was unbelievable. Watch his fights with Tillis and Coeztee: speed, movement, accuracy, power. What he could have been. And his death was obscenely tragic.

RIP, Greg.

 

Yes, it was. He had no business being in a ring by 2001. He should have quit no later than the 1993 ko loss to Bruce Seldon.

 

Greg had all the talent needed to become a great fighter that's for sure. If you take the best qualities of what he had or was able to show from several examples taken from his key fights and put them all together it would actually create a phenomenal heavyweight. And he fought everyone. His USBA title reign was good too. Trouble is Greg Page had lots of oppertunties to shine. He still dropped the ball a few too many times. but it wasn't through using his talent that he failed.

 

If you followed the sport at the time you will know there was an extremely small window of over lap for these two and zero demand ..

Prior to 1982 Page was a nonentity .. then in June 82 he got completely thrashed by Trevor Berbick on the Holmes - ****ey undercard in front of the world and it set him back ... He took over a year to begin to build himself back as an entity but then lost twice in 84 to Tim Witherspoon and David Bey ... Then in 85 he lost to Tubbs. BY that time Holmes title reign was over .. at the same time Holmes defended against and best the two guys who beat Page in Berbick and Bey .. the answer is no.

 

Yes and no. Holmes as an older fighter fought Witherpsoon, Williams ( then undefeated ), Smith, and Spinks. It would have been nice if he meet Page, though Page blew his status by losing Berbkick, Witherspoon and Bey from 1982-1984

It's not like Page won 18+ in a row as Franklin did

 

I don't blame him for his business decisions and for breaking free of Don King. He had to do what he had to do. But for the sake of rating him the critical component of facing worthy challengers has to be factored into the equation. While one can sit around all day and talk about the eventuality of the careers of Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas and a few others, hindsight doesn't erase what their standing was at the time of their rankings. These points particularly must be taken into consideration when looking at who Holmes fought instead of the mentioned challengers. From 1983 to 1985, Lucien Rodriguez, Marvis Frazier, Scott Frank, David Bey, Carl Williams and a green James Smith all received opportunities to face Holmes while Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas were waiting in the wings and Tim Witherspoon arguably deserved a rematch.. To be clear, I don't have a problem with Larry fighting Michael Spinks as he was an exceptional light heavyweight and given that some hall of fame heavys have made a living fighting former 175 pound men, it wasn't unreasonable. His career is still in good standing with me as I rank him in my top five. But there were parts of his title reign which left some things to be desired.

 

If Greg Page had the motivation and training, Larry was in for a loss, or at a minimum, a long night. If Greg wasn't such a nice guy, and had better sense, he would've won the title in 1982 anyways.

 

Nice try. But, you're skipping over a few important details. Page was already World Rated throughout 1981, beating guys like Scott Ledoux (quicker and easier than Holmes had the previous year) and Alfredo Evangelista. Granted these guys weren't great, but were good steppingstones. Then he beat an over the hill but still competent Jimmy Young by easy decision. Then, the loss to Berbick in mid 1982 did set him back. I wouldn't call it "completely trashed." He was not knocked down or ko'd. It was a clear cut decision for Berbick. Then he strung some good wins together over Tillis and Snipes and was the number 1 contender by Mid. 1983. Snipes was a good win, having knocked Larry down and giving a pretty good account of himself, decisioned Berbick and lost a close decision to Witherspoon. Larry had an extremely tough time against Witherspoon the same night Page beat Snipes. Holmes then defended against less than challenging opposition in the form of Marvis Frazier and Scott Frank. This was after defending against other mediocrities Lucien Rodriguez and Tex Cobb before the scare against Witherspoon. By the end of '83, Don King and the WBC started putting pressure on Holmes to fight Page. Rather than do that, Holmes decided to vacate, or was stripped, of the WBC title. Witherspoon and Page fought for the vacant title. So, yes he should have fought Page. Holmes had had plenty of defenses against mediocre guys, and was due another legitimate defense. Having barely beaten Witherspoon, and knowing that the WBC and King would make him fight King's top heavyweights, he opted to take his name and undefeated record to the newly created IBF which installed him as champion without having to fight any title fight. It was a smart move by Holmes. He was then free of the WBC, free to negotiate with other promoters, and more or less hand pick his opposition. Meanwhile, the WBC and WBA titles became contested between King fighters like Page, Coetzee (King had options on his first defense because King had promoted his title winning KO of Dokes), Witherspoon, Pinklon Thomas and Tony Tubbs over the next few years.

 

Except for stumbling over Trevor Berbick sure.