Sonny Liston has an underrated Resume

That first fight was on the level. Sonny had not fought beyond 3 rounds in four years. He had just 6 rounds of competition in four years. Now that was a severe handicap against a fast young kid who fought 102 rounds worth of pro fights within the same time scale.

I really think Sonny needed warm up fights in order to be seriously confident before challenging again but the rematch clause ruined all that.

It is very difficult to imagine Sonny having any stomach for that rematch under those conditions. Especially seeing as he had to wait a further 15 inactive months to actually get into a ring again.

 

If I remember rightly was the rematch originally postponed?

 

Yes.
It was scheduled to be in Boston in November, 1964.
Liston was reportedly in top condition for it.
Ali developed a hernia and it was postponed.

 

That still would have been 9 months out of the ring for Sonny. I really think he needed to be back in the ring 3 months after losing to Ali in Miami. A confidence building warm up. Even when it was rescheduled Sonny not taking or not being allowed to take another fight before the 1965 Maine farce was detrimental to maintaining any kind of form. ALI came back bigger and stronger. A break from training gave his body time to mature. It had the opposite effect on Sonny who was world weary by then.

 

Liston beat Dejohn. Valdez. Williams twice. Harris. Folley and Machen on his way to fight for the title. All wins. Huge resume there.

 

Only Harris, Folley and Machen were worth anything at the time. The others were strictly fringe erratic guys losing fights against rated fighters.

 

Williams was 45-3 when Liston beat him. He was unrated?

 

"only Folley, Machen and Harris were worth any value."

"This is overstated."

Equally true of your conclusion.

Certainly Williams, Valdes, DeJohn, and Bethea were worth something.

The fringe contender argument falls a bit short for any fighter who makes a strong push to the title. How many guys can be rated in the top five over a two or three year span? And one of those slots is going to be taken up by the rising challenger, in this case Liston.

A better perspective of his pre-championship career would be how many opponents were in the top five either at the time Liston fought them or within a year or two earlier or later.

It comes out five--Folley, Machen, Harris, Williams, Valdes (plus the champion Patterson)

I think that group probably matches or more than matches Jeffries, Dempsey, Tunney, or Marciano. Only Johnson and Louis did more, and had to do more, to earn a shot.

The weakness in Liston's resume I would focus on is that he never defeated a top flight heavyweight after the Patterson fights. He fought for years, but never met Terrell, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Ellis, Quarry, or Frazier. All his fights after Ali were against second-tier guys until he finally lost to a second-tier guy.

 

I think the first fight was legit, second fight was definitely dodgy, or maybe Liston just quit?

Nobody will ever know.

 

Actually looking at the ratings 59-61 Liston beat four from the top ten.....

Machen
Folley
Harris
Williams
Dejohn

Harris was a top 10 hwt in 1959. Dejohn a top 10 hwt in 1960. Williams a top 10 hwt in 1961. Folley a top 10 hwt in both 1960 and 1961.

 

That's five not four.

 

What do you think the reason was that Liston never fought any of these guys after the Patterson fights?
Was he being avoided or was it Sonny's people avoiding them,or was he simply frozen out as bad news after the stink of the second Ali fight?

 

It's my understanding that Liston was so tainted by the Ali fights he couldn't draw a decent gate. Few people would pay to see him fight.
The top fighters avoided him because of this.

 

have no problem with Machen, Folley and Harris as current fighters with form but the others Liston gets credit for beating really were "erratic fringe guys" whom all contenders would and could feast on.

Valdes did not fight sonny in a month he was rated. Nino fought Liston in 1959 losing more than he was winning that year. Nino was coming off two crushing defeats in his last two meaningful fights of that year to Alonzo Johnson and the footballer Charlie Powell who actually knocked valdes down three tines. He was lucky to cut Brian London in his last fight because he was already damaged goods before fighting Sonny.

Mike DeJohn went 2-2 in 1959 and won just 3 of his last 6 fights meeting Sonny. I would call that erratic form.

Bethea had a rating in 1957 but he met Sonny in 1958. In 1958 the erratic Wayne went 1-3 and had lost his most recent fight before fighting Sonny. Wayne Bethea had not strung more than three wins together without defeat in his 8 fights since December 1956. Liston did not fight Bethea when he was worth anything. He had static from so it's a win like a lot of fighters have climbing the ranks that dosnt mean much.


In terms of resume (without including another defeat) Cleveland was already 0-1 against current rated guys when fighting Liston.

Williams was proberbly a better fighter by 1963. By then Williams had at least proved he could hold his own with good fighters and even win competative fights with Daniels and Miteff.

However, over all Against actual rated fighters when "he fought them" Williams improved to 1-8-1 by the time he retired.

This is not a major player, I would throw out Williams as a key wins for Liston since he had not proved to be a fully formed contender at that time.

This leaves Harris, Machen and Folley as his best pre title wins. Patterson being the pinnacle of his prowess. Henry Clark was a good win too since even he was better than Cleveland Williams at the time Sonny fought him.