Coming Soon - In the Ring With Jack Johnson Part II: The Reign

Adam is just about the most objective and impartial biographer of a boxer I have read.
There's no point in continuing this.

 

Wikipaedia is not a primary source! You've never actually understood what that is .

CBZ had Choynski at5'10.5" /5'11"
IBHOF has 5'10"
Box Rec has 5'11"

On the subject of Choynski here is a direct quote from him regarding Peter Jackson.


Choynski sparred with Jackson in many exhibitions. Asked what made Jackson so great, Joe replied: “Oh, everything. The way he boxed and punched and picked off blows in the air. In my opinion, he was the perfect prize fighter. I respected Jeffries as a great warhorse, but Jackson was vastly superior to Jeff in every department, save for brute strength. There is no question that he would have slaughtered Jeffries and knocked him out somewhere over a 25-round distance.”

 

I believe it's silly to try and degrade Johnson in any way for having a competitive bout with Obrien. It was a six round bout which was perfect for the slick moving and boxing lt hwt to run about the ring avoiding the bigger stronger hwt and pot shoting here and there. It in no way degrades Johnson who's greatness all time is unchallenged by those who understand the sports history. Obrien was rated the greatest lt heavy of all time for decades so we are talking an all time great here. Anyway. It's a moot point.

 

Adam's book states that O Brien got himself into wonderful shape for the fight whereas Johnson did not.O Brien fought a jab and run fight, Johnson took his left jabs with disdain but was blowing after even the first round was over.
It is certainly not a reliable indication of what would have occurred over a longer distance and with a fit Johnson.
O Brien himself said he did not think he could beat Johnson over and extended distance.

 

As stated.....it's silly to degrade JJ because of this six rounder against the slick Obrien.

 

"The result of the fight is no surprise to me,although I expected Johnson would do better

.O Brien is a flashy man in a six round fight and could keep almost anyone off for that length of time ."

Jim Jeffries.

 

good stuff.

received both books yesterday and they are very impressive on first flicks, over 1500 pages in total between both, thats an epic piece of work...really glad to have these on my shelf.

 

You won't be dissapointed:good

 

Sounds like an excuse. Johnson was what, close to 205 pounds and in his absolute prime when it happened. If you want to be fair O'brien was more removed from his prime.:deal

Johnson knew the distance, and he could not get to O'Brien. O'Brien's jab and movement gave Johnson fits. So much for his vaunted defense vs the jab.

Unless you want to make the three separate paper decisions I posted disappear, what we have is a blow up smaller man boxing with little power boxing on even terms ( some say better ) with the heavyweight champion of the world.

IMO this does not enhance Johnson's rep. Quite the opposite.

 

I have O'Brien vs Burns and Burns wins nearly every minute. In addition Ketchel sparked the same guy in 3 rounds.

So much for that theory...

 

I did not say a primary source said. Can you figure out the difference?

If you want to see a source that says Choynski was over 6 feet tall, use Wiki which says Choynski was over 6 feet tall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Choynski

As for a primary source on a tale of the tape, what better source than a clear photograph as presented?! Clearly Choynski is taller in the photo, and the two are barefoot, standing perhaps 6" apart. DUH.

I would argue a photo in the context of this question is as primary as you can get. And it needs no 3rd party interpretation! We can see for ourselves. DUH

Corbett and Jeffries was a little talker than Choynski, I agree with that.

I used to wrestle back in my high school days, and I can tell you this. It's easy to out muscle a tired opponent. That's what Johnson did to Jeffries later in the fight. It’s also easy to bend arms when you have leverage and the other person is tired and not suspecting it.

But on film when they locked up and Jeffries had some stamina left, its clear Jeffries pushed Johnson backward. Watch the films!

I have little doubt Adam's work is quality. But I think he won't explore Johnson's dark side as much as Unforgivable Blackness did. Was Johnson guilty of the Mann Act. I say yes, because his nightclub doubled as a *****house in Chicago. If any woman went across the state line with some assistance to be there, you can say its volition of the Mann Act.

Even if Johnson may have been railroaded, the conviction in a way is similar to getting Al Capone on taxes, even though he committed more serious crimes. In Johnson's case, he's a documented wife beater, a pimp, and says he participated in fixed fights.

Learn how to read. I never said primary source. I said there is info out there on Choynski's height that varies. Height and reach can vary depending on the source. In addition, people are a little taller in the morning. Reach can change a bit on certain workouts too... Not sure if you knew that.

Now some quick questions which I think you will either avoid or attempt to blur.

1 ) Isn't a photo where men are in bare feet with their legs locked next to each other a good primary source for comparing height?

2 ) Who do you think looks taller and had longer arms in the photo?

If Choysnki was 5'11", then Johnson was a shade shorter.

 

No, neither weighed in O Brien was in top shape as described by contemporary reporters Johnson was described as "hog fat".

Johnson and O Brien were the same age.

Johnson had O Brien down twice and closed his eye ,there was much speculation that Johnson may have allowed O Brien to last.I doubt this, I think he just was not in shape and the 6 rounds distance did not allow him enough time to get to O Brien. Members of the press Who were on the scene agreed that O Brien was by far the better trained of the two.
He had trained hard and consistently and looked good.Conversely Johnson appeared to have accepted too many invitations to banquets to be in the best shape.
Since his return from Australia,theatrical work had taken up most of his time and he had been living the easy life. "he was terribly fat onleaving New Yorkand it would take a good two months to get it off" Two weeks work is only the start when a man is fat and out of shape.
Johnson was overweight,soft and blew like a porpoise when boxing with his sparring partners".


Jimmy De Forest said "I hear Johnson hasn't trained, he looks it". Club co manager ,and the bout referee Jack McGuigan said," O Brien is in fine condition"
With the fast and clever O Brien being in top trim,and Johnson having a paunch the crowd did not want to wager.

Johnson gave his weight as 205/206lbs but most thought he looked a lot more.

O Brien claimed to weigh 162.5lbs although he was closer to 170lbs.He looked to be trained as finely as a race horse.

The Philadelphia Public Ledger.
The Philadelphia Press.
The Philadelphia Evening Bulletin.
Scored the fight a draw.

The Philadelphia Inquirer.
The Philadelphia Record.
The New York Journal .
The New York World.
Scored the fight for Johnson.

Scored the fight for Johnson

The Philadelphia Record a couple of days later said.
"Philadelphia would hardly stand for another meeting for the reason that the local fight followers now know that Johnson is entirely too big for O Brien and that in condition , and so disposed, should beat O Brien in short order.
This is not to intimate that Johnson faked on Wednesday night,for there was no indication that such was the case, but he surely did not try his best in every round.Just why he loafed Johnson knows better than anyone else".

In summary we have an untrained, out of shape champion , cynically aware that the light punching O Brien has next to no chance of stopping him , that being the only way he could win so Johnson takes advantage of the conditions to come in fat .. I've said this several times on this forum , but haters like your self accused me of making excuses.Well now we have several contemporary reports, primary
sourced material that confirms Johnson was not in any shape.
Johnson was fighting an Irish American in Philadelphia his opponents town, and with an Irish American referee and white journalists reporting on the fight for white newspapers and a white public. Johnson also offered to fight O Brien again over a longer distance should there be a demand for such a fight ,there was not,so your oft repeated accusation that Johnson ducked an O Brien rematch does not stand up to scrutiny.

 

That is your idol Jim Jeffries opinion, not mine.

NB. Johnson toyed with both Ketchel and Burns.:think

 

1.No
2.Johnson
3.Every source I have read has Choynski as shorter than Johnson