Sonny Liston has an underrated Resume

Machen and Sonny obviously rated Williams. He clearly had some of the good attributes of a great fighter yet his career did not pan out verry well did it? He took longer to develop perhaps because he was avoided, than most contenders. He had lost to the only rated opposition he had met before fighting Sonny. He later became a contender but was never a world beater. Exciting heavyweight though.

 

If memory (and it has been a lot of years) serves me, Daniels was rated at the time of the second Williams fight also, after upsetting the at that time highly rated Doug Jones.

 

No that was a good win. Daniels, miteff, the draw with machen was about as good as it got for Williams. No shame in losing the Terrell rematch either. He's got two wins and a draw against at the time rated fighters. He lost to about eight of them.

Williams' over all win column against at the time rated fighters is about as good as Henry Clark. No shame in that. He just was not a world beater.

 

"He had lost to the only rated opposition he had met"

Well, there was only one, and Williams was I believe still a few days short of his 21st birthday,

and Satterfield was a brutal opponent for a young guy.

Compare Williams to Zora Folley, rated near the top in 1957 and 1958.

How many of Folley's victims at that time were actually rated when he beat them? I would not be certain of Valdes who was on a losing streak,

and his two wins over fringe contender Bethea were split decisions.

He had been knocked out by Summerlin and Johnson back in 1955 when they were in the top ten yearly rankings, and when Folley was much older than Williams was at the time of the Satterfield loss.

What Folley and Williams shared was that they were consistent winners.

*Interestingly, although not fighting many rated fighters, Williams got into the ring with probably the three most dangerous punchers of the era who were not champions--Satterfield, Holman, and Liston. It makes me think he might have been frozen out because he simply did not have the right mob ties. It makes no sense to fight these men and not fight rated fighters who would probably have been far less dangerous.

 

Billy the Barber was a good heavyweight. He looked good against Ali. Williams was not beating guys that good when he fought Liston.

 

No when Sonny beat Folley zora had already banked wins over Eddie Machen and Alex Miteff. It's more proven wins against better fighters than Williams had at the time Sonny fought him.

 

There is confusion here and I'm to blame for not making myself clear.

I was not referring to Folley when he fought Liston,

but the Folley of 1957 who was at that time #2 in the yearly Ring ratings. What had he done to earn that ranking? How many fighters had he defeated who were rated when he fought them?

I can see a good argument for rating Harris over Folley in 1957 or 1958. Harris' big wins over Baker and Pastrano trump anything Folley had done, and Harris was unbeaten.

 

Statistically Harris was a good contender and a former World title chalenger. He was a high value win for Sonny in 1960 but in 1957 yes his record looks good against Folley. All I can think is Machen and Folley were elevated in 1957 by their 1956 wins over Valdes who had as good a 1957 himself as those two.

Folley beat a 1956 version of Nino Valdes who was only having a 50-50 record at the time. But it was an emphatic near shut out win. I imagine it got him some kind of exposure added to keeping busy winning against fringe kind of guys like Roger Richer, and Wayne Bethea who were certainly more recognisable than the kind of guys Cleveland Williams was beating in 1957. At the end of that year valdes, Bethea and Folley were all rated.

In 1957 Cleveland was beating guys like John Holman on his last fight and going the distance with Frankie Daniels who Liston knocked out in one round one fight later. It's just not the same.

 

Liston was great but he is overrated on this forum.

Let's look at his career in an unbiased way though.

Bottom line, he was a special fighter and Cus D'Amato didn't want Floyd Patterson to face him... ever.

On his way up he had two close fights with veteran Johnny Summerlin, W8 and WSD8.

He went 2-1 (1) vs. Marty Marshall. Liston suffered a broken jaw in the first fight and lost by decision. Marshall weighed 180 Lbs.

He beat Bert Whitehurst twice, W10 x2. Whitehurst had been stopped 4 times prior to facing Liston. Archie Moore stopped Whitehurst in the 10th round in 1958, 1 month before Liston beat Whitehurst for the first time. Moore was about 100 years old and a veteran of 197 pro fights at the time, he fought 219 pro fights before retiring.

He scored 1st round knockouts over Wayne Bethea (17-8-2) and Frankie Daniels (34-15-2).

He stopped Ernie Cab (13-9-1) KO8 and Mike DeJohn (36-5-1) KO6.

He beat Cleveland Williams KO3 and KO2. Williams had the look. He was tall, muscular, decent speed, and power. Williams was 43-2 when he faced Liston the first time but had 0 wins over top fighters. He had been stopped inside of 3 rounds by Bob Satterfield. Williams best performances in his career would be KO7 Terrell, D10 Machen, and LSD10 Terrell. Impressive wins none the less.

He stopped Nino Valdes (47-17-3) inside of 3 rounds. Valdes was a pretty good HW at one time, but not when Liston fought him.

He stopped Willi Besmanoff (42-17-7) in 7 and Howard King (35-19-8) in 8. He beat King again in a rematch, KO3.

He stopped Roy Harris inside of 1 round. The light punching Harris had won close decisions over Bob Baker and Willie Pastrono. He won a clear decision over Willi Besmanoff. He had lost a clear 12 round decision to HW Champ Floyd Patterson. Very impressive win for Liston.

He stopped a very good Zora Folley inside of 3 rounds.

He won a hard fought decision over Eddie Machen, W12. Not much separated Folley and Machen but most of the time Machen was more durable.

He stopped Albert Westphal (24-8-3), KO1.

He stopped Floyd Patterson twice, KO1 x2. These would be Liston's only HW World Title fight wins.

He lost twice to Ali.

He knocked the **** out of guys like Gerhard Zech, Amos Johnson, Elmer Rush, and others after the Ali fights but would never get another world title shot. He stopped Henry Clark (15-3-2) inside of 7 rounds. He was KTFO vs. Leotis Martin in the 9th round but not before he rocked Martin (forcing a standing eight) and he ruined Martin's eye (detached retina). Martin would never fight again.

In Liston's last fight he stopped Chuck Wepner in the 9th round.

He would have fought on but he died 6 months after the Wepner fight, 1970. Some sources say at age 40.

50-4 (39) overall and 2-2 (2) in HW World Title Fights. He was stopped 3 times.

6'1" with an 84" reach (maybe) and he was about 215 Lbs. give or take a few.

He had a strong accurate jab, a powerful right hand, and could take a good shot. He fought smart, he picked his shots well, and didn't waste energy. He wasn't quick (hands or feet) but he used his size well. He was bigger and stronger and punched harder than almost anyone he faced.

I'm not sure how he would do vs. a tall, heavy, and talented HW like Bowe, Lewis, or either Klitschko.

 

Ali was a massive favorite against Leon Spinks. So Ali was prime right? It's not because he lost to Ali he was past prime. There were many other factors.

 

He wasn't prime when he fought Patterson.