Floyd Patterson avoiding Cleveland Williams

He was no more a world beater than Williams was.

 

And was only rated for one year longer ,and that because Williams got shot.
The difference between them being Chuvalo got his chance when he was in his prime.Williams was never the same after he was shot.His chance came too late, he should have fought Patterson the young champ Patterson, not that older guy who beat Chuvalo.

 

Why do you keep bringing up Roy Harris? What did I say about Roy Harris? If for whatever reason you want to drag Roy Harris into the argument then by all means do it but dont pretend Ive ever mentioned him on this discussion. If you want to ***** about Harris getting a shot in 1958 as if Williams deserved it then state your case. In 1958 at the time of Harris' shot Williams had done NOTHING in the division. He had fought two "names" Satterfield and Holman. He was knocked out by Satterfield who had lost two of his last three and beat Holman, who was fighting his last fight and had won only 1 of his last 6, on a KO after struggling with him. Not exactly the record you want to be touting to get a title shot. More to the point do you know who was rated higher in 1958? Harris who was rated 3 when those discussions started and might have gone even higher (I dont care to look). So how are you going to ***** ***** ***** about Patterson fighting a guy he had no control over as far as ratings are concerned over fighting Williams who nobody had heard of? Lets also not forget that Williams and Harris at that time were managed by the same manager and trained by the same trainer. Neither of those guys said anything about Harris getting a title shot over Williams because Williams had only just started getting press. When he went to fight Richardson in London both Harris and Patterson were there with their managers to discuss their title fight and have Patterson put on an exhibition on the same card. That fight was already on the books and Williams was rated only as high as 9 (and may have gotten that rating with his win over Richardson, Id have to look) when that fight was being discussed. So quit acting like it was a crying shame that Harris got that title shot. You have so much faith in the APs word well here is how they described Williams-Richardson: "Neither is considered championship timber. Richards, a Welsh Milkman, has lost his last three fights to Americans. Williams is ranked somewhere out in left field among American heavyweights." So much for their ringing endorsement.

No, I dont think Azumah Nelson was prime when Sanchez fought him and as such no I dont think Sanchez beat the best Nelson. The difference is that Nelson even then was a better fighter than Terrell ever was. Terrell was never a great fighter and never even the best HW in the division at any point. That means that Williams claim to KO fame is pretty weak.

Well, since only two of Terrells 1963 fights exist on film: Folley and Williams, you are talking about the Williams fight (you know the fight he beat the unbeateable KO monster Williams) because very few people have seen the Folley fight. Terrell hadnt started using his height yet (which is evident in this fight and his fight and especially with Folley where Terrell made it a much harder fight for himself by not using his natural advantages against the ever timid Folley) and was still trying to fight like a banger, which is how he fought in the amateurs. More to the point Williams is slow of foot, tight or rather muscle bound, wide open on defense and wild with his punches. If this is the killer that shook the division to its foundations then it was a **** poor division. He didnt and it wasnt.

Luckily neither you nor the AP render an official decision. As for the KD the referee (who voted for Williams) said it wasnt a KD, therefore the judges have to rule it a slip. Its immaterial what you call it. Whats not immaterial is that Williams blew his load early in that third round and allowed Terrell to stay in the fight.

 

Uhhh when exactly should he have fought Patterson? When can you ever make the case that he deserved a shot at Patterson? Hell, even if you want to say he didnt deserve it but deserved it more than people Patterson fought you can punch holes in that. Even Brian London had fought and beaten better fighters than Williams when they fought. Johannson had a better claim. Harris had a better claim. The only guy that didnt was Tom McNeeley and nobody is going to fault Patterson for taking a gimme after a tough 3 fight series with Johannson and then facing the guy that knocked out Williams twice in a row. Like I said before, Williams has no case for being ducked. He got chances to make that case and blew them otherwise the timing wasnt right. Either he wasnt rated (rightly so) or was shot (literally and figuratively). Beyond that how can anyone say he categorically would have done this or that based on that padded record?

 

Hang on here, if a bigger fighter beats less names it makes him more of a contender and less manufactured than the guys that beat contenders? Oh I get it now! Anything smaller than Williams must be a "manufactured" heavyweight. Joe Louis, Gene Tunney, Rocky Marciano, Floyd Patterson and Jack Dempsey were all manufactured too?

Do you think there was a conspiracy going on to keep tall muscular guys away from "manufactured" heavyweights who were beating contenders?

Williams deserved a crack at the title before Lastarza???

Williams was brought to New York to appear on the under card of Marciano v Lastarza at the polo grounds. No doubt the promoters were sold on the big cats unbeaten 27-0 knockout record so they put him in with a 10 fight novice sacrificial lamb called Sylvester Jones who beat the pants off Williams decking him twice in a fight cut to four rounds!

Incidentally Ingemar Johannson was a former World Champion at the 27 fight stage.

 

Oh come on, 27-0 he must have been pretty well developed both physically and career wise. Tami Mauriello, Billy Conn, Benitez and many others were beating good guys at that age. In the lighter weights especially.

 

Oh Christ not Sylvester Jones again! Williams was 19 years old and weighed under 200lbs for that fight. Nine months after their fight they fought again ,Williams stopped Jones in 7rounds
Mauriello had 45 fights when he turned 19. Johannson was 26 years old when he won the title ,Williams was 19 when Jones beat him. Johannson wasn't even a pro at that age.
I don't say Patterson was afraid of Williams, but I'm pretty sure D'Amato was.

 

Why is it ok for Williams to lose his first big fight outside of his home turf when 27-0 because he was green but when Terrell does the exact same thing hes in his prime? Talk about a double standard.

If Harris was manufacture then blame Williams' manager for manufacturing him and manuvering him to a title fight ahead of Williams. Blame the Ring and the sanctioning bodies for rating him FAR ahead of Williams. Dont come on here pretending Patterson ducked him.

Show me where I picked Roy Harris to beat Cleveland Williams. I want the link please.

You can quote Liston, Machen, and the AP in regards to Williams but here is the problem with those quotes:

Williams drew with Machen in 1962. He didnt beat him. So what does that prove? In 1962 Patterson had just finished an epic 3 fight series with the guy who knocked out Machen in 1 round going 2-1 against him and was getting ready to fight the guy who knocked out Williams twice and outpointed Machen. You wanna try to make the case that Williams deserved a shot or that Floyd was ducking him based on that? Good luck...

Your quote by Liston was made in 1963. Patterson wasnt champ at that point Liston was. Liston, who was making that quote knocked out Williams. Patterson fought Liston. Again, you wanna make the case that Patterson was ducking Williams by fighting the guy who had knocked out Williams twice? Odd logic. And keep in mind Patterson didnt have to face Liston. He actually broke with his manager in order to take that fight because he knew it was right and that Liston deserved the shot despite a very public outcry against Liston getting a shot based on his past.

Again, the quote about the Miteff fight is pointless because when Williams beat Miteff he had just completed his three fight series with Johannson. A bigger question would be how Miteff was supposedly rated so highly with only winning one of his last three fights.

***** about Rademacher all you want but he easily dominated a prime Chuvalo. Williams for how good he supposedly was lost to an old Chuvalo.

Williams was better than Lastarza??? Now thats crazy talk. Its bad enough you think he somehow deserved a shot before Harris but before Lastarza when he was a total nobody? Now thats just some delusional fanboy bull**** there.