Floyd Patterson avoiding Cleveland Williams

How impressive was he?

He defeated Daniels twice by ten round decisions.

In between those fights Daniels lost most of his other fights, including a three round stoppage to Karl Mildenberger.

The bottom line here is that Williams didn't do as well against Daniels as Mildenberger did at about the same time. Sure, Williams is a worthy contender, but these type of results hardly prove him a super-fighter.

 

Oh, come on.

Machen was coming off a loss to Patterson.

What kind of championship fights did Terrell have?

Machen and Chuvalo had recently lost to Patterson, and Jones had lost to both of them. Machen and Jones were clearly on the downslope of their careers.

And Patterson was at best the number three heavyweight behind Ali and Liston.

After getting beaten by Ali, Terrell lost to Spencer and Manual Ramos when he was only 28.

Ramos?

I don't think there is any evidence Terrell was any better than the 4th best heavy in the world at his best.

 

The NBA had him 7th according to this:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AAIBAJ&sjid=lucDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6987,115472&hl=en

As you say, hard to see how anyone could place him higher after the loss to Cooper.

 

I have an autographed photo of Brian London hanging on my wall (in my boxing room), and I think that he was a boxer with a great heart and carisma and as he ended up as a wealthy man, he was not so stupid as someone tries to make us believe.
That said. he was never top 10 material at ANY stage of his carear.

 

"He was never top 10 material in ANY stage of his career."

My take would be that this is a little harsh. I think he was a fringe contender who deserved ranking near the bottom of the top ten at certain times.

He certainly was never a top five man,

and it was bizarre that he got two shots at the title.

 

Youve never seen Rocky Jones fight and you never saw Williams lose to Sylvester Jones. Thats the point thats an inconvenient truth for you and Suzie. It was Suzie who said Williams deserved a shot over LaStarza. Yet Williams was dropped twice and beaten in a four rounder by a 7 fight nobody. Id pick Rocky Jones to beat that version of Williams as well.

Now, lets get down to brass tacks. Ive seen Rocky Jones. He wasnt a bad fighter. Despite that he was fighting LaStarza in his Jones' hometown in the first fight, and that decision was highly disputed which is what led to the rematch. LaStarza, regardless of what Chuck Hasson says (and lets keep in mind that Chuck is a Philly guy and Jones was based in Philly at that time) dominated Jones in the rematch. The knockdown call against him was B.S. and he claimed (and I admit that a fighters word on his own fights is hardly reliable but still) that he outpointed Jones easier in the first fight. So I wouldnt be too comfortable drawing conclusions about a fight Ive only read a quick blurb about.

 

Most interesting thing is having to introduce Williams. Nobody knew who he was!!

Publicist sensationalism.

 

Hi Morbius

Please tell me when he should be in the top 10.

There were mostly 5 men better than him in Europe most of the time: Cooper Mildenberger, Johansson, Amonti, Tomasoni (?)

What would the americans have said? "We have 200 boxers better than those limies"

London did beat Pastrano (but also lost to him) and Folley (late in Folleys carear). Amos Johnson was lucky just getting DQ before getting kayoed.

 

When Patterson and London was being discussed, just after the Cooper fight and before the revised NBA ratings came out, London was rated #3. The ratings took a massive shuffle in two months between the revised ratings and the actual fight night for Patterson-London. The ratings for January-February for the NBA were:

Patterson
Johannson
London
Valdez
Folley
Pastrano

Patterson had already signed for Johannson (his #1) before the NBA set their new rankings. When the new rankings came out London slipped to 7, Cooper went to 3 and Valdez went to 2. However less than a month after this the ratings went haywire when Valdez was upset by Powell. London was back up to five after that. Williams was not rated higher than London. More to the point Patterson was signed to fight his #1 and took a gimme against a rated contender. Criticizing London as not being deserving of his rating but saying somehow Williams was deserved to be rated higher is ridiculous. I say again, show me the wins that illustrate that. Williams doesnt have them. London did.

 

Cooper should have got the title fight NOT London and that is why the British Boxing Board of Control fined London for taking it because it was their policy that a British fighter must first be British Champion in order to challenge a World Champion.

Interestingly neither Ernie Terrell nor Clevland Williams feature at this point.

 

Terrell said the same thing ,and added that having sparred with Liston there was nothing to choose between them . Interview in the Ring 1960 or so.

 

You can have the biggest bomb in the world but if you cant get it to the target it doesnt matter. The boxing landscape is littered with big punchers who werent any good. Power is only one component of the sport. Big deal if Williams hit as hard as Liston. He wasnt anywhere near as good as Liston or as good as some people here seem to think.

 

Guess it's lucky I didn't say that, then.

 

The whole reason London got the fight was because Cooper priced himself out of it, London was abailable, Patterson was already signed to fight Johannson, his #1, and Patterson was just picking up a fight to tuneup for Johannson so you cant really blame him or London. When that fight was discussed London was the 2 or 3 guy and Cooper had agreed to fight Floyd for half of what he demanded after he beat London. Patterson and Cus went in another direction and when they finally did fight Patterson damn near decapitated him.

 

At the end of 1958. He was 22-3, had lost only to Neuhaus, Cooper, and Pastrano--all of whom had rated at one time or another, and was coming off wins over Erskine and Pastrano. The Ring rated him 8th. I think 8th to 10th at that point was reasonable.

He also could have been rated going into the Ali fight, even if he really didn't deserve the shot,

He was on a winning streak, including wins over Rischer (rated in 1964) and Amos Johnson (who had just drawn with Mildenberger and beaten Cooper). 9th or 10th might have been fair.

As for the Americans, here is his record against Yanks who were rated at one time or another in the yearly Ring ratings--

Pastrano--won, lost
Patterson--lost
Hunter--won
Machen--lost
Young Jack Johnson--won
Von Clay--won
McNeeley--won
Rischer--won
Spencer--lost
Ali--lost
Quarry--lost, lost
Folley--won
Clark--draw
total 7-7-1

I think his record shows he was capable of competing with the second-tier or fringe Americans who were also earning ratings.