Floyd Patterson avoiding Cleveland Williams

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, Jun 14, 2015.


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  1. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Ive never implied I saw either of them fight. And the truth is never inconvenient to me.
    What is starting to get up my nose is being condescendingly lectured to by you.
    You are a knowledgeable poster who would be much more pleasant reading if his towering ego and patronising sneering were not so evident.I come on here for fun and relaxation not to read the diatribes of a self important bore I 'm out of here.:hi:
     
    mcvey, Jun 19, 2015
    mcvey, Jun 19, 2015
    #136
  2. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Once again Klompton I NEVER implied Williams deserved a title shot over lastarza. All I said was that I think Williams would have beaten lastarza When both were in there respective primes
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 19, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 19, 2015
    #137
  3. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Yes I think although Cooper just beat him London was coming off two good wins beating Erskine and Pastrano back to back. Being the first guy to stop the colourful Pastrano had to be a better selling point than henry outpointing Folley -who up until then was proberbly known only as "that borring guy" who drew with Machen.

    I think Ed asked a while ago if Folley did any more than Harris to earn a shot at Patterson and I Struggled to answer him because whilst the years later proved Folley to be a proven gate keeper at the time of the Machen draw Zorra had not done much. Certainly not as much as Machen to be awarded an eliminator.
     
    choklab, Jun 19, 2015
    choklab, Jun 19, 2015
    #138
  4. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    " I think Williams was underrated as a boxer, he was more than capable of out pointing good fighters if he couldn't knock you out. Add in he was 6 foot 4. 215lb of muscle, and very athletic. He wasn't small and weak like a lot of those manufactured overprotected white figters like London harris Erskine pastrano Lastarza et"

    Thats you.

    Why even bring LaStarza up if you werent trying to say that and continue to argue the point. Lastarza had nothing to do with Williams and frankly they werent even really contemporaries given that Lastarza was a real contender (regardless of what you think) when Williams was a complete nobody getting the **** kicked out of him by nobodies. Youve consistently tried to defend that Williams was better than his loss to Jones showed on the undercards of Marciano-LaStarza and that Williams was better than LaStarza?

    Either way LaStarza's two performances against Marciano are better than anything Williams ever showed in his entire career, prime or not.
     
    klompton2, Jun 19, 2015
    klompton2, Jun 19, 2015
    #139
  5. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Williams in his prime late 50s-early 60s never suffered an embarrassing loss to a fighter of Rocky Jones calibre. jones was even told to take it easy on Lastarza in the rematch so he wouldn't beat him again. Lastarza also lost to average fighters CoKKell and Bucceroni...both inferior fighters to williams.


    Let me ask you this...

    If a better faster counterpuncher in eddie Machen couldn't beat williams, why could Lastarza? Lastarza was nowhere near machens level.

    Lastarza was not a real contender. Clarence Henry was a real contender. Ezzard Charles Bob Baker were real contenders. Lastarza ducked fights with all the best fighters of marcianos era. Moore henry baker charles Louis etc because he knew he wasn't good enough to beat them and wanted to ease his way into a title shot based on his performance vs a green marciano in 1950

    The truth is a contender like Clarence Henry was a far more formidable opponent

    Lastarza looked horrible aGainst layne. AP scorecard had layne winning. Lastarza looked dreadful against cokkell too
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 19, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 19, 2015
    #140
  6. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    again what did Lastarza bring to the table vs williams?

    He didnt hit hard, he didn't move well, he didn't have fast hands, he didn't have outstanding skills, he wasn't tall, he was small, he had a short reach, he didn't have a good jab
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 19, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 19, 2015
    #141
  7. Woller

    Woller Active Member Full Member

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    I am glad that we agree.
    Good old Brian was 30 to 75 ranked at best.
    <but he was a swell guy!!!
     
    Woller, Jun 19, 2015
    Woller, Jun 19, 2015
    #142
  8. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    We have posters here trying to claim Brian was number 2 in the world LOL
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 19, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 19, 2015
    #143
  9. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Williams only drew with Machen.

    Eddie Machen lost to Harold Johnson.

    Dan Bucceroni beat Jimmy Slade and Slade took a prime Harold Johnson to a split decision.

    Why am I mentioning Dan Bucceroni? Well Lastarza beat Dan Bucceroni. Knocked him down a number of times too.

    So machen lost to a guy who had a split decision with a guy who Lastarza beat.

    I don't think Machen and Lastarza were that far apart. Obviously Machen was the better contender over all since he opperated at top level for a longer time. Williams was no better than either machen nor Lastarza, although they all operated at the same contender level.
     
    choklab, Jun 20, 2015
    choklab, Jun 20, 2015
    #144
  10. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    You want to play that game?

    Dan bucceroni got knocked out by hurricane Jackson. Eddie Machen knocked out hurricane Jackson
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 20, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 20, 2015
    #145
  11. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    With any ducking accusation, you have to ask the three w's.

    When, where, and why, should this fight have taken place!
     
    janitor, Jun 20, 2015
    janitor, Jun 20, 2015
    #146
  12. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    When: 1964. Nationally televised bout. Set up by New York state athletic commission

    Where: madison square garden
    See for yourself
    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=0PQFAAAAIBAJ&pg=7210,2570557&hl=en


    Why: Harry Markson director of boxing offered floyd 35 percent of the gate, williams manager agreed to take less to get floyd into the ring. That's a great deal for Floyd. And a chance to fight for the WBA title eventually.

    Also

    When: July 1961
    Where: Houston Texas promoted by Donald Mikhail.

    After the miteff Williams bout, Texas Boxing Enterprises, the promoter of the bout, sent Floyd Patterson an offer of $100,000 or an option of 40% of the gate to meet Cleveland Williams.

    2 sources

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=OFYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2908,1607388&hl=en

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=jdEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3496,2688770&hl=en

    Why: Because Williams was a top 5 rated fighter who gave Floyd a very generous offer

    Interesting floyd said he has plans to defend his title in 1961 against someone In the top 10 not named liston Machen Johansson or Cooper.
    Floyd ended up choosing the unrated mcneeley
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 20, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 20, 2015
    #147
  13. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Janitor the real answer is why not: because Floyd didn't like to get in the ring with fighters who possessed height reach size punching power and handspeed
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 20, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 20, 2015
    #148
  14. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    It's clear now from those articles Floyd ducked a fight with williams in 1964
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 20, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 20, 2015
    #149
  15. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Klompton and ChokeLab

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AAIBAJ&sjid=FukFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5838,974546&hl=en

    Maybe you two should have done your homework on williams-jones I

    "In the fourth around williams was chasing jones, he might have finished jones off had the bout not been called off to permit the marciano Lastarza match to start on schedule"

    Seems to me williams got robbed. He was on the verge of knocking out jones and they called off the fight because they needed to start the main even on time

    It says two weeks later, williams flattened jones with one brutal left hook to the jaw
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #150
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