Should Floyd Patterson be criticized for for defending his title against

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, Jun 19, 2015.


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  1. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I don't have to carry water for Liston. He has plenty of support on this board. Folks who consider him better than even Ali.

    as for Williams, I have defended him recently both on the quality of the Holman fight and by pointing out that he was rated as early as 1957.

    But if I don't agree with your assessments of these men on every issue then supposedly I hate them or Liston or you or something.

    The critics have made a valid point that Machen had his chances but always failed to come through. He fought to a certain level, I think, and never went above it, and that level seems a bit short of championship caliber.

    I don't think that is hatred, it is just an honest opinion.

    And Folley was very similar. Folley does have impressive longevity and consistency, but guys like Savold and Cooper lasted a long time also. He was better than them, but again not quite able to get over the hump which separates a good contender from a champion.
     
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    #121
  2. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I never ever said they were worthy contenders. And for the record, neither was McNeeley.

    *In fairness to London, he is not probably not among the bottom level contenders who have fought for the title.

    Harris I think was a worthy contender, slightly below the middle of historical contenders.
     
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    #122
  3. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    On williams, fair enough. You did.


    You say Machen and Folley were not able to get over the hump which separates a good contender from a champion.

    My answer is how do you know? Since neither Machen nor Folley got title shots while they were in their prime despite being ranked number 1 and number 2. Maybe they would have beaten patterson? We don't know since they werent given the opportunity while lower ranked challengers were.

    Machen certainly looked a lot better vs liston than patterson did
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #123
  4. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    "here is your post from April 4th 2010"

    At my age, you expect me to remember a post from five years ago???!!!!

    that said, I see nothing to disagree with in it.

    "Why do you never defend Liston or his opposition? I've never seen it."

    You just pulled up and posted a quote in which I defended Liston's opposition.

    But as Patterson, Machen, Folley, and Harris were all Liston's opposition, I fail to see what point you are even making? If I think Harris is a relatively better fighter, why is this a hit on Liston. He knocked out Harris in one round.
     
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    #124
  5. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    This is from an eddie Machen article so it could be considered bias but I thought it had some interesting points


    "In 1958, the super-cautious Cus D’Amato, the proprietor of Patterson, kept ducking Machen just as he ducked most of the top heavyweights, charging they were all under the sinister control of the forces of evil.” While D’Amato seethed against the wickedness of man from rickety soapboxes, the heavyweight championship went through the ignominy of having Pete Rademacher and Tom McNeely contest it in spectacles closer to pratfall conventions than prizefights. In his never-ending jihad against unholy forces in boxing, D’Amato frothed over Sid Flaherty, who, like 98.5% of fight managers, maintained a working relationship with Jim Norris and the IBC. This flaw, one that brings to mind the poor crones in medieval Europe accused of witchcraft due to an unsightly mole or an affinity for cats, was enough to demonize Machen. Behind all of his righteous bluster, D’Amato was merely trying to protect his fragile champion, whose chin made tin resemble titanium. In eleven Patterson title fights from 1956 to 1963, over 40 knockdowns were scored, with Patterson suffering 15 of them. Years later, Patterson, the most dignified of fighters, was embarrassed at being protected, and when the world demanded that he face Sonny Liston, Patterson insisted that the fight be made. Public demand, unfortunately, never reached those heights for Machen."
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #125
  6. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I agree. I don't know.
    We can't divine what never happened.

    But what did happen was that Machen lost to Johansson, lost to Folley, lost to Liston, lost to Johnson, lost to Patterson, and lost to Terrell.

    So could Machen and Folley have become champions in 1958? I know not, but do know that--

    "There is a tide in the affairs of men
    Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
    Omitted, all the voyage of their life
    Is bound in shallows and in miseries."

    Thus do men's dreams fall in flight,
    Leaving but a cold and lonely night.
     
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    #126
  7. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Ok I apologize for saying you don't defend Liston

    My point is mainly I have a huge criticism of floyd Pattersons reign. I think eddie Machen and Zora Folley got royally screwed out of one of those title shots.

    When fighters like tom mcneeley and Pete radamcher get to fight for the world heavyweight title and eddie Machen doesn't? That's injustice to me
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #127
  8. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    What's that from?
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #128
  9. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Julius Caesar.
     
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    #129
  10. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    I like it
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #130
  11. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Well, this rises or falls to an extent on whether there is a case that the IBC represented in fact the forces of evil.

    The Kefauver Committee and the Justice Department sided with Cus,

    which undercuts putting it in the same class as witch burnings.

    "Public demand . . . never reached those heights for Machen."

    Because he failed in his critical fights.
     
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    #131
  12. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Right but so did radamacher harris mcneeley and London fail in critical fights..and the public demand certainly never reached the demand for those heights. It's almost like had eddie won his first 24 fights in less impressive fashion, he would have been more likely chosen as an opponent for patterson to fight

    For Machen I would say the hurricane jackson fight was critical. Jackson was coming off a world title shot vs patterson. Machen dominating him cemented Machen into the number 1 spot. The title shot should have come there and then.
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #132
  13. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The public demand was concerning Liston getting it and Machen not getting it,

    and I was responding to the comparison between the two.
     
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    edward morbius, Jun 21, 2015
    #133
  14. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Right well no comparison there, liston cleaned out the division

    Interesting article here even if off topic

    When asked whose the best he's foughf liston said "Cleveland Williams was one of the best"

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=EuMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5878,3834927&hl=en
    Liston really rated williams
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #134
  15. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Another one for you

    Eddie Machen vs. Johnny Summerlin
    (Redirected from Fight:61895)
    1956-12-05

    Referee: Joe Palmer 3-6
    Judge: Richie Fazio 3-7
    Judge: **** Albino 3-7

    "Undefeated heavyweight Eddie Machen today was offered a bout with Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson as a stepping stone to a title match with new heavy king Floyd Patterson. Machen's ability as a counter-puncher as displayed in last night's triumph, might make him a capable foe for the flurrying champion. Although Machen failed to record his 15th knockout in winning 19 bouts, it wasn't because the Californian was head-hunting. Johnny Summerlin withstood the heavy pounding much to the amazement of his shorter opponent and the 1,915 spectators who paid a gross gate of $4,951 to see the televised and broadcast battle. Machen was in command throughout the match." -Associated Press

    Unofficial AP scorecard - 7-2-1 Machen

    Post fight comment

    "We have offered Machen a bout with (Hurricane) Jackson and we would like to put the winner of that fight in with Patterson." -IBC matchmaker Billy Brown
     
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    SuzieQ49, Jun 21, 2015
    #135
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