Sonny Liston vs Moore, Pastrano, Torres ,Foster, tiger, Johnson

Pastrano was a respectable light heavyweight who also did some admirable work at heavyweight. But I'm having trouble grasping that someone would actually give him a serious chance against Charles Sonny Liston. Sonny destroyed men like Pastrano, who while skilled and durable, bore little or no semblance to Muhammad Ali, who BTW fought Liston when he was passed prime anyway.

 

Hang on here. Firstly I also think Liston beats Pastrano prime for prime. But what men like Pastrano did Liston Destroy?

He Destroyed Westphall, Patterson, Bethea, Harris. Real blow outs. Neither used much footwork. Got caught in the headlights.

Williams, DeJohn, Valdes and Folley were more competative standing their ground before losing. They were knocked out but not annihilated as such in a one-sided way, kind of went down fighting.

where as Machen and Whithurst using movement actually gave Sonny good fights.

Liston replicated his best ever win one fight previously to being "passed prime" against Ali.

 

I guess Im just not as impressed by Liston as some.

Im also not sure I have ever understood the argument that Liston suddenly got old overnight simply because he got totally embarrassed by Ali. Certainly the writing was on the wall against Machen that movers were not Liston's cup of tea.

 

I do accept Liston was at one time the best heavyweight in the world. He was streets ahead of Williams and Valdes. And within a window an all time great. Specifically in 1960 where everything he did smelled greatness.

I do think the inactivity provided in doing just two rounds in two years effected him. Yet accepting that, I am astonished that so many historians say liston completely nose dived after beating Floyd the second time. It dosnt wash.

The first fight was not fixed. I think Sonny just needed rounds but the delay and lack of a tune up between Ali fights really prevented Sonny from having any kind of appetite or desire for the second fight (which was ruined as much by bad officiating as anything else anyway) leading people think Sonny deliberately threw both. He might not have thrown either!

I think circumstances prevented Sonny ever being 1960 sonny Liston ever again. That's it. Floyd really had his worst two nights ever versus Sonny but that's not Listons fault. Sonny had a nose for one round wins if the other guy did not get going immediately. But Floyd was better than one round. If the other guy is a great starter he deserves to win. Sonny owned Floyd even if Sonny was Already past his best.

 

I think Liston could get past them all by 1960 but may not be so easy with some of them, a young Liston had his troubles with Marshall who was 179lbs and an older Liston got KO'd by a 195lb Leotis Martin in between Liston was pretty strong but guys like Pastrano and Moore on good days could trouble the slow Sonny and Johnson may be trouble as well.

I would go with Sonny winning but like I said he may have trouble with these guys because they were a class above most of his opponents

 

You can pick apart anyone especially with a very early one bad fight, or when old...

But Liston was a legitimate ATG.

Like Louis had a great record & won a strong of fights even when old & well past prime before succumbing.

When prime he was not really slow, boxed well, good endurance, absolutely top shelf power & reach And could fight inside & out.
With a good assortment of punches, combinations,, & amongst the very best & certainly heaviest jabs ever.

When old he was, according to Foreman, the only man ever to back him up.

 

Patterson was the only world beater. The others were good fighters of Pastrano kind of level if you use the resume of each up to the time Sonny fought them.

What kind of dent did these "bigger and better guys" actually make on the world heavyweight scene? Within the rankings they simply had "won some and lost some" reputations just like Pastrano did at that level.

 

Could not agree more. Sonny was a real world beater. Without doubt the best of the Ingo Patterson Liston era. A real talent whom achieved an awful lot with so few fights in the first 9 years of his career.

At his best his worth must match a lot of great champions but it is debating when this was and how long for, how great the opposition was (at that time) or how serious Sonny was that proves so confusing.

 

No I am afraid you have yourself confused again.

I am saying Patterson was a world beater. That's why I said that among Listons victims "Patterson was the only world beater". I thought that was clear enough.

Patterson was by far and away better than anyone else that Liston beat. Better than Williams. Better than Machen. Better than Folley and it goes without saying miles better than Whitehurst, westphall, king and Valdes. Patterson beat Ingo and Moore.

Pastrano was not a world beater at heavyweight. When did I say that he was?

Pastrano joins the ranks of a lot of decent contenders like machen, Valdes, Folley, Harris, Cooper that were also below the only championship caliber opponent Liston Beat (Floyd Patterson) who all "won some and lost some" against one another.

Williams was not ever a world beater. Neither was Valdes but at least he was at one time a #1 contender as Machen Folley were. #1 contenders are elite but not "world beaters".. after all Henry Cooper was a #1 contender!

 

choklab

Just curiously--when was Henry Cooper the #1 contender?

 

August 15th 1961 Henry Cooper was #1contender in the NBA ratings.