It should have taken Ali 3 years (71-74) to fight for Hw title.

Stander and Daniels were so lowly regarded, I accept that, but perhaps Ali had signed up too many ranking contenders in 1972, it could have crushed any luster a Frazier v Mac Foster or Frazier v Lewis or Frazier v Patterson match ups might have had. Who wanted to pat top dollar to see the champ face guys the last unsuccessful challenger could beat?

With hindsight looking at the bare facts it seems rediculous Ali fought so much without getting a shot. but the truth is Ali needed money. He could not afford to sit out and wait, maybe Ali occupied all of the available contenders preventing Frazier from meeting them?

 

The WBA/WBC did not strip Frazier of his title for meeting Daniels or Stander. So if Frazier could afford to get away for a couple of easy defences after winning the FOTC and suffering with health problems after the bout then I don't blame him. Stander actually had a good record before meeting Frazier and had already knocked out Earnie Shavers.

It wasn't until the WBA insisted that Frazier must defend his title against no1 contender George Foreman that Frazier was forced to step up to a better opponent.

 

This is correct. But what put Foreman at #1 over Ali?

 

Who wanted to pay top dollar to see him against Stander and Daniels?

And there were also Lyle and Shavers. Not world beaters, but still far better than Stander and Daniels. It's not like it was impossible for Frazier to secure defenses against fighters in the top 10 or at least close to it.

Had any HW champ since Dempsey gone so long without defending against anyone of substance?

 

Frazier - Ali II should have happened in '72. Or even in the autumn of '71, after Ali beat #3 contender Jimmy Ellis. Efforts were made. It just didn't happen for a variety of reasons.

Ali did do a nice clean up of the division. Looking at various 1972 rankings only George Foreman, Jose Luis Garcia, and Larry Middleton stand out as not being beaten by Ali nor eliminated by another contender.

During the first few months of 1972, guys like Lyle, Terrell, and Bugner were actually ranked below Stander and Daniels, who both hovered around the #15 spot.

Bonavena lost to Patterson in early '72 and then stayed inactive for a year and a half, though a Bonavena-Foreman bout was penciled in for late '72. Al Jones was inactive with hand problems.

In my view, Patterson should have gotten a shot in early '72. He won 6 of 6 in '71 and capped that off with the UD over Bonavena in early '72.

 

It's difficult to see what Fraziers options were between March 1971 until the end of 1972. Frazier had already beat his #1, #2, #4 and #6 contenders. The only big fight was Ali again.

Lyle had a rating in the annual 1972 top ten but had beat absolutely nobody in the top ten to earn it. Ron lost to Jerry Quarry weeks after Frazier lost to Foreman. Until then, Lyle at 19-0 might have had a rating but didn't mean much more than 28-4-1 Terry Daniels who at least was known for going the distance with Patterson, had beat Manuel Ramos and Ted Gullick who (as it turns out) was the only live opponent Foreman faced that year.

Stander knocked out Shavers before getting a shot at Frazier. Through the eyes of boxing fans in 1972 Stander looks better than Ernie
Shavers surely?


Frazier took ten moths off after Ali before fighting Daniels. In that time Ali beat #5 Ellis, Mathis and Blin. Then in the time between that fight and Fraziers next with Stander, Ali fought Mac Foster and George Chuvalo. By the time Frazier took on Foreman Ali fought #2 Quarry, Blue Lewis, #5 Floyd Patterson and Bob Foster.

The guys Foreman fought in 1972 were 1-14-1 Joe Goodwin, 3-24-1 Clarence Boone, 15-5-1 Ted Gullick, Miguel Paez 48-15- 13 and the acomplished Terry Sorrell whom possesed a record of 4-15 eight weeks ahead of #1 contender George Foremans "showdown" with champion Joe Frazier.

 

Shaver's loss to Stander came two years before, when Shavers had been pro for just six months.

However you twist it there were many better guys than fighters that weren't in the top 10, perhaps not even in the top 20. Barring serious injury it can never be acceptable for a champion going almost two years without defending his title against a ranked contender. There is just no way past this simple fact.

 

He's not the only fighter to have done it in a comparable fashion. Look at George Foreman in the following year after winning the title from Frazier ( within 2 rounds - unlike Frazier who had won a greulling 15 round war with Ali in FOTC and taken months to recover from) he beats the unknown and lowly ranked Jose Roman King. That is hardly acceptable either?

There were no big fights for Frazier apart from Ali. Frazier would have been criticised for fighting Patterson who was old and past it in the publics view. Frazier should have either fought Ali again or retired.

 

Foreman faced Roman and his mandatory, Norton, within about a year of winning the title. Frazier faced unranked Daniels 10 months after FOTC and then unranked Stander.

 

But Frazier had already beat the entire top half of the top ten. I don't agree with the Daniels and Stander situation as such but I do understand why it happened. Even if Frazier needed a lay off he was still waiting for a new face to burst through.It was either a guy he already beat, an Ali victim or an unproven contender. Larry Middleton or Jose Luis Gonzales were about the only guys out there who had yet to be found out.

 

Nobody would have begrudged Joe ONE easy defence following FOTC but TWO were ridiculous. As Bokaj has stated,Ali would have been pilloried had he done the same following Zaire.

 

Actually he faced Norton more than a year after winning the title. Frazier took 10 months off because he was considering his options - possibly thinking of retiring and had taken a long time to recover from FOTC.

Another example Sonny Liston wins title in Sep 1961 in a one round KO then gives Patterson a re-match the following year with an identical result then faces Clay in Feb 1964. So in a total of 2 1/2 years Liston has ONE round in defending his title against Patterson who he had already KOd in one round. I know Patterson was probably the mandatory challenger but its still a lousy reign.

It cannot be underestimated that the FOTC was the biggest HW fight of all time - there was nowhere for Joe to go after that.

 

Liston - Patterson I was in 1962. The rematch was originally scheduled for April 1963 but was postponed a few times.

 

Sorry your right the first fight was 1962

 

As Sweetsci said, Liston honored the rematch clause one year later and about half a year after that he faced the nr 1 contender in Clay.

If Joe thought there was nowhere to go after FOTC he should have retired. But he choose to stay champion and therefore should have defended the title against deserving challenges. There's no way Stander and Daniels deserved to be anything but fillers.