Fitzsimmons gave up 39lb to Jeffries. Langford only gave up 29lb to Johnson

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, Jul 11, 2015.


  1. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Yet people constantly praise Jeffries for defeating Fitzsimmons, while they take away from johnsons victory over Langford claiming he was too small
     
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  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    It wasn't that he was too small. It was that he got so much better, and "learned to punch" in his own words, some time after the Johnson fight.

    Fitzsimmons was the HW champion of the world (Though past prime).
     
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  3. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Fair Points but Langford in 1906 had already defeated hall of Famers hadn't he?
     
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yes, he was a very good fighter.

    In the end though, I think you have to accept that a light-middle/small middle isn't going to be a great scalp for an ATG heavy, no matter what the circumstances.

    On the other hand, a reigning HW champion is always going to be a good scalp. By definition.
     
  5. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    So a middle/small middle isn't a great scalp for an ATG heavy but a middle/super middle like 167lb Fitzimmons is just because he's heavyweight champion?

    Who was heavyweight champion in 1906? Hart or burns? Would you pick either of them over the 156lb Langford? I wouldn't.
     
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Correct.
     
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  7. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    The question you have to ask, is what was each man in terms of the division at the time?

    Fitzsimmons was the reigning heavyweight champion when he fought Jeffries the first time, and clearly the best fighter in the world apart from Jeffries himself the second time.

    When Langford fought Johnson he was a feared middleweight, but he was new to the heavyweight division, and not regarded as a great scalp yet.

    I give Johnson a lot more credit for his wins over Sam McVea, who was regarded as major force in the heavyweight division.

    I must also point out that Fitz might have weighed more than 167 when he fought Jeffries, and indeed Langford might have weighed more than 156 when he fought Johnson, though I have not seen any evidence in the latter case.
     
  8. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    But what if Langford at 156lb was good enough to be heavyweight champion? After all neither burns nor hart beat Langford in 1906
     
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    If Langford had taken the title from Jeffries or defeated the other top heavy in the world when the title was vacant, sure, that would have made him the champ.

    Beating the champ, always a good win. Because what was in doubt is now certain.
     
  10. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    People tend to lump Johnsons wins over Langford, Jeanette, and McVea together, but they shouldn't.

    Langford was only just testing out the waters at heavyweight.

    Jeanette was green, but a significant figure in the squabble for the colored title.

    McVea was seen by some, as the outstanding challenger for Jeffries title.
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Langford had over 50 fights when he met Johnson, how many fights do you need before you," get better"?
     
  12. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Johnson was not an ATG heavy when he beat Langford was he? He had less fights that Sam under his belt.
     
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    This will vary from fighter to fighter.

    It should be obvious that Langford got considerably better as a heavyweight.
     
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah; it was a fine win at the time if that's your point. But in appraising his status as an ATG heavyweight, it's not that meaningful.
     
  15. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Two more points to consider imo are that:
    Fitz was 37 years old ,12 years older than Jeffries, and had been effectively retired for 2 years.