My 2015 list of the top 100 fighters in the Queensberry Rules era

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by TBooze, Jul 16, 2015.


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  1. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Once again; my top 100 fighters of all-time!

    I did it in 2003, 2007 and 2011 (my top 100 in 2007: http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=21561 and 2011: http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=285334), and now it is that time to once again to be shot and mocked for my opinion.

    I went through the 2011 list, and made the changes I felt were needed.

    My influences will have been books I have read, information I have gathered and of course, peer pressure. Which bearing in mind I have few friends who know anything about boxing anymore, means you lot.

    The numbers in the brackets are the positions I gave the fighters in 2011:

    100 Jem Mace (100)
    99 Wlad Klitschko
    98 Kid McCoy (93)
    97 Tony Zale (86)
    96 Carmen Basilio (67)
    95 Jung Koo Chang (92)
    94 Joe Frazier (95)
    93 Eusebio Pedroza (94)
    92 **** Tiger
    91 Nicolino Loche (99)
    90 Jack McAuliffe (90)
    89 Rinty Monaghan (83)
    88 Freddie Welsh (75)
    87 John L Sullivan (88)
    86 James J Corbett (87)
    85 Ken Buchanan (97)
    84 Al Brown (84)
    83 Mike McCallum (73)
    82 Felix Trinidad (80)
    81 Georges Carpentier (66)
    80 Shane Mosley (89)
    79 Mike Tyson (85)
    78 Nino Benvenuti (78)
    77 Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis (91)
    76 Lennox Lewis (82)
    75 Juan Manuel Marquez
    74 Pancho Villa (69)
    73 Young Griffo (45)
    72 Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil) (60)
    71 Kid Gavilan (68)
    70 Benny Lynch (81)
    69 Kid Chocolate (61)
    68 Wilfred Benitez (74)
    67 Carlos Ortiz (77)
    66 Wilfredo Gomez (71)
    65 Salvador Sanchez (65)
    64 Jimmy Carruthers (64)
    63 Antonio Cervantes (63)
    62 Aaron Pryor (79)
    61 Bob Montgomery (72)
    60 Ruben Olivares (62)
    59 Stanley Ketchel (35)
    58 James J Jeffries (58)
    57 Maxie Rosenbloom (51)
    56 Tommy Loughran (49)
    55 George Foreman (54)
    54 Rocky Marciano (55)
    53 Jim Driscoll (56)
    52 Abe Attell (44)
    51 Azumah Nelson (50)
    50 Ike Williams (59)
    49 Jose Napoles (70)
    48 Alexis Arguello (48)
    47 Jack Dempsey (57)
    46 Michael Spinks (37)
    45 Bob Foster (39)
    44 Larry Holmes (43)
    43 Tony Canzoneri (52)
    42 Manuel Ortiz (41)
    41 Pascual Perez (47)
    40 Carlos Zarate (46)
    39 Eder Jofre (40)
    38 Jimmy McLarnin (53)
    37 Evander Holyfield (31)
    36 Tommy Hearns (30)
    35 Ricardo Lopez (42)
    34 Marvin Hagler (36)
    33 Roy Jones Jr (38)
    32 Jack Johnson (26)
    31 Oscar de la Hoya (32)
    30 Emile Griffith (34)
    29 Manny Paciquao (33)
    28 Mickey Walker (21)
    27 Terry McGovern (24)
    26 Bernard Hopkins (29)
    25 Gene Tunney (27)
    24 Jimmy Wilde (11)
    23 George Dixon (25)
    22 Joe Gans (14)
    21 Julio Cesar Chavez (23)
    20 (Barbados) Joe Walcott (19)
    19 Barney Ross (15)
    18 Pernell Whitaker (20)
    17 Floyd Mayweather Jr (28)
    16 Charley Burley (22)
    15 Willie Pep (17)
    14 Sandy Saddler (16)
    13 Ray Leonard (10)
    12 Sammy Langford (18)
    11 Archie Moore (8)
    10 Carlos Monzon (13)
    9 Benny Leonard (12)
    8 Ezzard Charles (7)
    7 Joe Louis (9)
    6 Muhammad Ali (6)
    5 Harry Greb (4)
    4 Bob Fitzsimmons (5)
    3 Roberto Duran (3)
    2 Henry Armstrong (2)
    1 Ray Robinson (1)
     
    TBooze, Jul 16, 2015
    TBooze, Jul 16, 2015
    #1
  2. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I thought I was being progressive by even rating Wlad...
     
    TBooze, Jul 16, 2015
    TBooze, Jul 16, 2015
    #2
  3. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Wlad has domination, but like Ken, he has only a couple of wins of a generally recognized world crown. But unlike Ken, he does not have victories the caliber of an Ortiz or Laguna. Nor does have compelling narative of Buchanan's career.
     
    TBooze, Jul 16, 2015
    TBooze, Jul 16, 2015
    #3
  4. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yes; I do not rate Heavyweights as a whole, and the last decade, the brothers apart, seem to have been as bad as anything. Buchanan fought in a golden era of the Lightweights, and was for a period the best, and for most of the rest of that time, one of the top three or four.
     
    TBooze, Jul 16, 2015
    TBooze, Jul 16, 2015
    #4
  5. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    He actually fought in arguably the second strongest era in the division's history. Which does indeed as your comment shows, indicates how poor the division is.

    The heavyweights generally are dominated for long periods by an icon, who is far better than anything else around. It is just Lewis had Ruddock, Holyfield, Tua, Tyson and Vitali to show his dominance; Wlad generally has had dross and the one bit of quality he (rightly) choose not to fight...
     
    TBooze, Jul 16, 2015
    TBooze, Jul 16, 2015
    #5
  6. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    My hat's off to you for attemting something like this. I myself find it too daunting a task.
    I see some fighters have quite dramatically diffferent positions as opposed to your list 4 years ago.
     
    fists of fury, Jul 16, 2015
    fists of fury, Jul 16, 2015
    #6
  7. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    What did Jem Mace do in the Queensbury era to qualify?
     
    Boilermaker, Jul 16, 2015
    Boilermaker, Jul 16, 2015
    #7
  8. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I appreciate the effort this took.

    If you want opinions, here is my initional reaction.

    I started watching boxing in 1975. I remember Duran fighting on network television as a lightweight when I was a kid and I followed him through his moves up in weight. I've collected his fights over the years. My dad always watched his fights when I was younger, and we had one television, so we all watched.

    I experienced Duran's fights first hand. The ones everyone brings up. I've watched them over again since then. Many more than once.

    And I have NO IDEA AT ALL why people continue to rate him so highly.

    The guy was an excellent lightweight and even an excellent welterweight. But he wasn't unbeatable in either weight division. And he totally embarrassed himself for 99 percent of the last 20 YEARS of his career.

    Truth is, after 1980, he was just "a guy." And often he wasn't even an "in shape" guy.

    Did he do enough from 1972 to 1980 to warrant the third best fighter of all time ... enough to wipe out the two decades of predominantly ordinary to embarrassing performances after that?

    Not to me. And I experienced Duran when he was Duran.

    He in no way was the third best fighter who ever lived. I don't even think he was the third best fighter of the 70s. Forget all time. Hell, for the last 10 YEARS of his career, I'd cringe when I saw his name come up as fighting again. Because he was not very good at all.

    I know he's on a lot of people's lists. But nobody can ever really explain why he should ever be rated that high. His lightweight challengers weren't really spectacular. Many lightweights since have fought better opponents.

    That's what stood out for me.

    You can forgive a guy for coming back for a payday and losing once or twice. But when a guy wasn't very good for several DECADES after his peak, I can't brush that under the rug.

    Watch Duran get punched in the armpit against Pat Lawlor and quit ... and tell me that guy is the third best fighter to ever live. (And he fought for another 10 years after that.)

    Not in any way shape or form.
     
    Dubblechin, Jul 16, 2015
    Dubblechin, Jul 16, 2015
    #8
  9. Webbiano

    Webbiano Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Pea next to Mayweather is cheeky. I saw his position on your 2007 list previously and assumed he'd have gone up a fair few place. Commendable efforts :good
     
    Webbiano, Jul 16, 2015
    Webbiano, Jul 16, 2015
    #9
  10. Jpreisser

    Jpreisser Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Some poor placements, but hey, it's your list and I commend your effort.
     
    Jpreisser, Jul 16, 2015
    Jpreisser, Jul 16, 2015
    #10
  11. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Popularized it internationally. He was first living international sporting superstar, who traveled the globe (well went to the States and Australasia).
     
    TBooze, Jul 17, 2015
    TBooze, Jul 17, 2015
    #11
  12. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Duran does divide opinion. I consider him the finest 135lber ever; only Benny Leonard is real competition to that title. I would also suggest his best performance was as a 140lber against Palomino. As you mentioned the 1980 victory over Leonard does add a lot to the resume.

    But then New Orleans...

    There is no excuse for that. Duran should of sucked it up and dropped the decision.

    And the slide continued after that, until that amazing year in 83. Cuevas, Moore and Hagler adds a lot to the resume. Added kudos because of his age and previous perform. Ditto the Barkley performance.

    After that I would concede I cannot defend Duran. There were small glimpses of light, but most of the LeonardIII onward career was a train wreck.

    I like redemption and so to me the Duran story is compelling, hence the rating.
     
    TBooze, Jul 17, 2015
    TBooze, Jul 17, 2015
    #12
  13. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I think Jr will go up in due course, particularly if he sticks to his word and calls it quits after the next fight. Because that is when the '0' can legitimately factor into his resume, without the * of 'still active'.
     
    TBooze, Jul 17, 2015
    TBooze, Jul 17, 2015
    #13
  14. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Regarding Palomino, I completely agree. Duran's win over Carlos Palomino is one of my favorites. That was an electric night. And I really liked Palomino when he was the champ. To me, that's Duran's best win.

    I know the win over Leonard is his greatest victory, but it was very close. The Palomino win was Duran just putting on a dazzling show for a huge, knowledgeable audience against a respected former champ.

    Duran was also "supposed" to fight Benitez in a non-title bout the night Wilfredo fought Bruce Curry the first time. Curry was a late sub and nearly pulled (a probably should have gotten the upset). Had Duran and Benitez fought then, Duran likely would've won. But they didn't.

    I also got swept up in the comeback against Cuevas and Moore, because people wanted desperately for Duran to be Duran again. But, in hindsight, that was overblown.

    When Duran came back against Nino Gonzales (after the second Leonard fight), it was clear he was on the downside of his career. And, basically, it was terrible watching him (compared to what he once was) for the vast majority of the next 20 years.

    I think a fighter CAN destroy his reputation by fighting too long. Duran is one of those guys for me. The bad far outlasted the good.

    But even at his very best, I don't think he was the third-best fighter ever. And for two-thirds of his career (1981-2001), he was downright ordinary (if not bad).
     
    Dubblechin, Jul 17, 2015
    Dubblechin, Jul 17, 2015
    #14
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