Is Sugar Ray Leonard overrated?

Those who feel Leonard won are backed up by the official scores.

One of the official judges (Poletti) scored the fight 10 ROUNDS EVEN, 3 for Duran, 2 for Leonard.

If you can only give the winner THREE clear rounds ... out of 15 ... and 10 rounds even ... there no clear winner.

Harry Gibbs scored it six rounds to Duran, five rounds to Leonard ... and FOUR ROUNDS even.

Judge Baydelrou scored it six rounds Duran, four rounds Leonard ... and FIVE ROUNDS even.

The official decision could've gone either way. The majority of rounds were too close to call.

In the rematch, Leonard stopped him. In the third fight, Leonard won 11 rounds on one card and all 12 on another (he won eight rounds on the third).

Leonard easily could've won all three fights.

There were so many even rounds in fight one.

 

:thumbsup

 

It was unanimous decision for Duran and you would be hard pressed to find many who gave it to Leonard. BTW....Ring and BI both gave it to Duran also.

 

Bottom line is: A lot of the rounds were close and difficult to score. Duran had a very good start and won some of his rounds more clearly than Ray won his, but Duran was far from dominant for the last 2/3 of the fight.

 

It was a one point fight on two cards ... and one of those cards had it 10 ROUNDS EVEN (the other one-point card had four rounds even).

That's the definition of a fight with NO clear winner.

Name another fight where someone won 3 rounds to 2 with 10 EVEN?

Duran got the nod. It was a classic battle. But anyone who says Duran won clearly is FLAT OUT WRONG.

Winning three rounds out of 15 on a card that awarded you the fight is NOT a clear win.

Sorry.

 

Scoring that many rounds even causes the judges abilities to be in question. The one judge who scored so many rounds even was castigated after the bout. I had the bout clearly for Duran. Aside from the NY Times I can't find any other source that scored it for Leonard.

 

What it means is officially the fight could've gone either way. Scoring four and five Rounds even isn't exactly normal either.

Duran got the win. But, with so many even rounds, he just as easily could've lost.

 

Virtually no one scored the bout for Leonard. If as close as you claim where are all the scorecards that gave Leonard the bout? So close as you claim then you should be able to find 40-50% of ringside cards that gave the bout to Ray. Please post them.

 

You post all the ringside scores. I'm posting on a message board on a Sunday evening before True Detective starts. I'm not researching a paper.

There were hundreds of media credentials passed out. Their scores matter as much as yours does.

Only the official scores matter. Duran got the nod.

BUT THERE WERE MORE ROUNDS SCORED EVEN (19 rounds scored even) than were given to either guy.

It was an even fight. Neither won "CLEARLY."

 

Again if what you say is true and the bout could have gone either way please post the 50% of ringside scores that gave the bout to Leonard. I'm not saying they don't exist but I can only find that the NY Times had it for Leonard and that it. Far cry from a result "that could have gone either way" which would mean 50% of cards from ringside would be for the loser.

 

I'm not going to go searching for all the scorecards of every media member sitting at ringside.

I post here for fun.

Duran got the decision. But the fight could've gone either way.

I don't know why that's so troublesome for you. Fights can be too close to call ... but someone gets the decision anyway.

The official judges were sitting the closest, and they had no idea who won the vast majority of the rounds. 19 even rounds on three cards is pretty unprecedented.

 

Also, the percentage of boxing writers who scored for one guy or the other wouldn't have changed the outcome. Their scores don't count.

Duran won by 1 point on two official cards. One of those cards had 10 even rounds. The other had four even rounds.

If one even round is scored for Leonard on those cards, it's a draw.

That's how close it was to being a tie.

It's ridiculously close. The fight could've swung wildly off those even rounds. But the judges couldn't pick a winner in those rounds, because they were so tight.

Nobody was "Clearly" winning anything.

 

Here is an ****ysis of the bout. It jives with my memory of the bout.

Round 1: 10-9 Close, but Leonard edges it. Duran a bit reckless.

Round 2: 9-10 Duran hurts Leonard.

Round 3: 9-10 Duran on fire.

Round 4: 9-10 Still on fire.

Round 5: 10-10 This is one of those rare times that I scored an even round. Leonard has big moments. Duran is the constant aggressor. Duran is ducking a lot of shots. The exchanges are even.

First third summary: Leonard: 47 points. Duran: 49 points. Duran decisively wins first third of fight.

Round 6: 10-9 Very close. Leonard edges it with some clean hard shots.

Round 7: 10-9 The fight moves to the center of the ring. Leonard has Duran on the ropes for a spell. Duran comes on at the end, but Leonard edges it.

Round 8: 10-9 The round is fought almost entirely in the center of the ring. Duran comes on at the end with some tremendous shots, but he is resting mostly. Leonard carries the round by a slim margin.

Round 9: 9-10 Pretty much all Duran. Leonard is resting, perhaps. And holding a lot. Leonard appear to be cut by a butt. Maybe this is distracting him.

Round 10: 9-10 Leonard does some impressive shining at the end and ends with a good shot. He started off the round with a good shot. But Duran outhustles him in between.

After two-thirds: Leonard: 95 points. Duran: 96 points. Leonard carries the middle third of fight, but by the slimmest of margins. For a while it looked like he was crawling back into the fight. But Duran comes on big in 9 and 10. Duran clearly has the momentum going into the championship rounds. Leonard needs to do something dramatic.

Round 11: 9-10 Leonard is tired. Duran has second wind. Leonard tries to put Duran on the ropes but Duran turns Leonard right back around. He is pounding Leonard throughout the round.

Round 12: 9-10 Another big round for Duran. Leonard is very tired. Duran is landing clean hooks and right hands, while digging to the body. Leonard is missing a lot of punches.

Round 13: 9-10 Duran has taken clear command of the fight. He is teeing off on Leonard head. Hooks, right hands. Leonard’s head snaps back several times. Even off the ropes Duran is landing punch after punch and Leonard is just leaning on him. Leonard needs a knockout to prevent Duran from snatching his undefeated record and he has nothing in the tank and although he hurts Duran in the final seconds, it has been one of Duran’s most dominant rounds in the fight.

Round 14: 9-10 Both fighters are very tired. Duran outhustles Leonard and lands several clean shots. He buckles Leonard’s knees. It’s amazing how Duran makes Leonard miss. The bolo punch gets a lot of attention, but you can see clearly from the close up that it doesn’t land – it misses Duran by almost a foot - and Leonard is in any case holding and hitting in a flagrant foul. (I can’t believe people fall for gimmicks like this. Remember Leonard's low blows bolo on Hagler and the attention it received?)

Round 15: 10-9 Duran gives the round away. He knows he has won big and knows Leonard doesn’t have the stuff to knock him out.

Final score: Leonard: 141; Duran: 145. Duran romps through the championship rounds to seal the deal. Very impressive win. Even more impressive when taken in its totality. Duran whips Leonard's ass.

The officials scores are surprisingly close. Angelo Poletti scores a lot of rounds even - 10 of them, in fact! At least the judges got the unanimous verdict right. Can you imagine how crazy a majority decision or draw would have been? I can’t even contemplate a Leonard win. You really have to wonder sometimes what people are looking at when they score a fight. Leonard and his camp believed they won on the night of the fight.

Some people I talk to score round one even and then maybe find another round for Duran in between 6-8. But then these same people often given Leonard round 5, which I don't. Almost everybody I talk to has Leonard evening up the fight in the second third. I thought that was the standard understanding of the fight, but I respect your opinion. Leonard doesn't win very many rounds at all decisively, so I guess I can see how you might give some of those to Duran.

However, if you watch the ebb and flow you will see that Leonard is able to crawl back into the fight because Duran's furious pace winds him a bit and the fight moves more to the center of the ring. This is strategic. Duran decides to take a few breathers so he can dominate down the stretch. By the 9th round, Duran clearly has his second wind and takes it over, putting Leonard back on the ropes. Watch the fight again and you will see what I'm talking about.

By the middle of the championship rounds Leonard clearly needs a knockout or several knockdowns to win. Duran puts far too much distance between Ray and himself in the final third. Leonard was exhausted. It isn't until the 14th that Duran starts to fade. Throughout the fight Leonard is only able to get things done when Duran pulled back on the fury. Otherwise he's popping Leonard with shots from all angles and particularly nailing Leonard with hooks.

When I watch the fight with people I make them aware of three key things observers often miss. So I will suggest these here.

The first is Duran's body punching. He is constantly punching underneath. Leonard does some shining to the body, but he is ineffective in coming up with solid punches underneath. Body punches are extremely important punches in boxing, but observers often miss them or don't accord them their deserved importance.

Second is Duran's constant punching. Leonard tries to tie Duran up by clutching Duran's arms under his arms. But whenever Duran has a free hand, he's banging. All these punches count. I have noted that many observes stop counting punches when one fighter is holding.

Third, Duran slips punches. Duran is the absolute master of this. He has a uncanny ability to move at the last fraction of a second. He does this so that his opponent is committed and he can counter. Duran almost always leaves exchanges having the last word. He steps up this tactic down the stretch. Leonard is missing like crazy. Also, Duran is ducking down and Leonard does not change his style to account for this. Instead of coming up with his punches, Leonard is firing hooks over Duran head or overhand rights that hit Duran's back. These are not scoring punches. The one dramatic uppercut Leonard does throw, the bolo, which gets observers excited, misses by a country mile.
Andrew at 7:51 PM

 

Nope. It was a majority decision for Duran. Duran won, but it was close. Damn close.

 

Here's how I remember it ...

Judge Harry Gibbs scores it 6 rounds Duran, 5 rounds Leonard, 4 rounds EVEN
Judge Angelo Poletti scores it 3 rounds Duran, 2 rounds Leonard, 10 rounds EVEN
Judge Raymond Baldeyrou scores it 6 rounds Duran, 4 rounds Leonard, 5 round EVEN

Razor thin fight. Far more EVEN rounds than decisive rounds. Either guy could've won.

I had no problem with Duran getting the nod. I also would've had no problem if Ray had retained the title, since he was the defending champion.

In the next two fights, Leonard proved he was clearly better.

Leonard said he fought the wrong fight the first time. He decided to stand and trade with Duran. He didn't fight that way in the other two fights, and won handily.