Where does Stanley Ketchel rate as a puncher all time

My eyes and the fact that his punch didnt even land as Johnson was dipping forward and going down before it even connects... Nevermind the fact that every ringside newspaper account discussed that it was suspicious looking at best and then said so again when the films were first released. Given that Johnson had an interest in the films and the fight had been a one sided joke up to that point with Johnson literally having to hold Ketchel up to prevent him going down more than once its fairly safe to assume given everything else that a dramatic knockdown was what the doctor ordered to part even more white suckers from their money to see their hero flash in the pan. Its still working today. Jack Johnson you rascal.:good

 

Film of the fight does it for me.

 

Good post.:good

 

Which round was that, and is it on film? Ketchel looked awful vs. Johnson in the filmed rounds. He did land a good one ( round 7 ) that produced a visible mark on Johnson according to the press.

[url]http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=940CE6DF1239E733A25754C1A9669D946897D6CF[/url]

Note the report said Johnson was still dazed after he won, a sign the punch that floored him was legit.

As a hitter I think Ketchel had the goods, but you have to go on those who saw him. Not as great as Fitzsimmons, but in his time they all said he had great power. The trouble is who were the other big punchers at middle weight for a comparison?

 

Nat rated Fitz as the hardest puncher at higher weights. At middleweight he chose Ketchel as its best and its hardest hitter.

Watch the footage of the Johnson Ketchel bout. An overhand right over Johnsons low left during one of the earlier rounds makes Johnson stutter step. This does not mean that Ketchel did well against Johnson.

Nat fully stated that he never saw Ketchels early bouts out west (see 50 years at ringside) but he did cover his bouts in the east and was at ringside for his bout with Obrien where the bell saved Obrien from a KO. One of Stanley's greatest performances.

The poster who posts only with an agenda in mind is Klompton. Just one bit of revisionism after another.

 

Also at the time of Nats death in 72 Ali was generally rated as a fringe top 10 ATG. It was not until his wins over Foreman and then Frazier in Manila that most historians lofted him to high rankings all time

 

Klompton is rather self opinionated and brooks no dissent with his views , I've fallen out with him several times.Having said that he does know that era of pugilism, and he has seen footage that is not available to Joe Public.

 

Reports of Johnson being dazed during or after the fight are directly contradicted by Adam's books on Johnson and his multiple contemporary sources.
Anyone knowing the poster making these remarks =YOU,might like to remember


1. You said Johnson's fight with Battling Johnson was cut short to save him from defeat.
3. That Johnson quit against Klondike.
4. That Johnson deliberately fouled Jeannette to save himself from defeat.

These and about 30 other lies you have promulgated on this forum.

The result being that your credibility on the subject of John Arthur Johnson is not of the highest order.'''

 

I have no views on filmed footage one way or the other, but I've personally observed nothing to make me think Ketchel hit as hard as either Jackson or McClellan at 160. As for Nat Fleischer's opinions, I take them as seriously as Bert Sugar's.

 

Do you want to take a look at some of Ketchel's ko victims?

Here you go!

Kid Tracy debut
Jim Quinn debut
Jim McGuigan 1-3-0
Kid Leroy debut
Johnny Gilsey 0-1-0
Bob Merriwell debut
Jim Murray debut
Bob Merriwell 0-1-0
Jim Kelly 7-8-6
Kid Lee 3-3-0
Joe Munro debut
Jack Grimes debut
Jack Bennett 0-2-0
Sid La Fontaine1-0-2
Sid La Fontaine 1-1-2
Curley Rue debut
Kid Peor debut
Kid Lee 6-5-0
Peter Kelly 6-5-0
Bob Sennate debut
Roy Hart debut
Bob Sennate 0-1-0
Marysville Kid debut
Jack Bennet 0-3-0
Kid Foley 3-3-5
Paddy Hall debut
Mike Tierney 0-1-0
Kid Lee 6-6-0
Kid Foley 3-4-5
Mike McLure 4-3-3
Benny Hart 5-3-3
George Brown 7-2-2
That's 32 of his 48 ko's right there! 13 of them against men having their 1st fight and a further11 against men with losing records!
Here's some more:
Willie Lewis 46-6-4
Jim Smith 5-3-0
Joe Thomas 13-5-4
Porky Fynn12-3-3
There is conjecture that these were "arranged results".
Now the rest.
Hugo Kelly 30-7-20
Jack Twin Sullivan 37-9-28
Mike Twin Sullivan30-5-12
Joe Thomas 13-4-4
Joe Thomas 13-3-4
Jerry McCarthy 19-6-10
Kid Thomas 18-16-3
Kid Herrrick 38-15-29
Jerry McCarthy19-5-0
Billy Papke 25-1-4
Jack O Brien 91-6-14

So quality wins O Brien, Papke,marginal quality wins Kelly both Sullivan's.

Is this the stuff of legend?:think






Do you want to compare them with Moore's mildeweight kos?

 

Soooo, the New York Times had somebody in California reporting on the fight... and failed to give a byline. I think I'll go with the actual ringside reports:

Harry Smith San Francisco Chronicle: "Ketchel Never Had A Chance To Win" "Easy Mark For Champion" "Thoroughly one sided" "To the writer, and 90 percent of those who were in a position to follow closely what was happening, the punch seemed to glance around the back of Johnson's head. Apparently, also, it had little force and there was genuine surprise when Johnson dropped down..." "It may have been a straight knockdown that Ketchel scored; it is possible of course that the negro could not save himself, but the writer did not see a punch that would have such an effect, and it must be remembered that such an ending would be of vast assistance to the handling of the moving pictures." "That the negro could have finished the fight much earlier than he did was apparent to those at ringside, and that he was merely saving Ketchel even to the extent of holding him up in the earlier rounds, when the white man was almost falling, was proved to any tyro of the boxing game." "Before the fight started it was whispered about the press seats, coming from a well known sporting man that Johnson would fight for the moving pictures for 12 rounds and that he would then cut loose." "George Little is credited with having told several friends that Johnson would win in the twelfth round." "There is reasonable suspicion that Johnson, for the sake of the pictures, preferred to allow his opponent to last a reasonable amount of time." Smith goes on to descibe Ketchel's face as a mask of blood (which can be seen in a good print of the film I have), Ketchel being dropped twice (in addition to the several times Johnson held Ketchel up) and how Johnson laughs at the punch that Perry imagines shook him.

John Francis Neylon San Francisco Chronicle: "Eliminate the physical courage which has dubbed followers of the fighting game to dub Stanley Ketchel 'the lion hearted' and he would have been hooted from the ring." "It was Johnson all the way, even during the spasm of renewed hope which brought the crowd to its feet in the twelfth round." "Whether Ketchel hurt Johnson when he half knocked and half shoved the champion to the floor will always be a disputed point."

Referee Jack Welch: "At no time did Ketchel have a chance against the wonderful defense of the negro."

Eddie Smith, Oakland Tribune: "Ketchel Proves Easy Game For Johnson" "Ketchel Badly Overmatched in Bout With Big Champion" "Some there are who will be suspicious of the final ending of the contest. Many will say that it was pulled off for the benefit of the moving pictures and others will say it was a prearranged affair to make it look as Ketchel had a chance. For those who believe that it was done for the pictures there is considerable argument to be advanced to make their claim appear feasible." Smith stated that Johnson had been trying to make Ketchel rush him all fight long until "the supposed knockdown" (his words, not mine) when Ketchel took the bait. "There will be any number of people who will insist that Johnson let the white man stay ten rounds for the benefit of the pictures, and in this I am inclined to take the side of the claimants." Smith says that when Johnson stripped down to his boxing trunks Ketchel shook from nervous hysteria and actually cried from fear to face him. He said Ketchel's seconds had to crowd around him and encourage him and that when the fighters met ring center Ketchel's eyes were red from crying. "Ketchel was badly outclassed in every angle of the boxing game."

WW Naughton, Oakland Tribune: "Stanley Ketchel Game But Thoroughly Outclassed" Ketchel "had about as much chance with the giant as a rabbit would have with a grey hound" "The closing round was a sensational one and at the same time a peculiar one... ...Ketchel started a giant swing with the right and his glove curved around Johnson's neck. Johnson fell clumsily to the floor, close to where the writer sat, and I noticed a grin on his face as he went down."
Naughton is non commital on whether he thought the knockdown was fake but discusses how many will believe it was. He also mentioned Ketchel being very nervous and crying before the fight.

William Slattery, San Francisco Call: "Black Champion Scores After Reeling From A Mysterious Punch" "Fans Fail To See The Blow Which Staggers Johnson" He quotes ringsiders: "It was a good show but the last act was rotten, they should have a stage manager to give them a few practical rehe****ls" Slattery notes that the referee said Johnson was hit but that he was alone in his ascertion and that even Johnson said he was hit on the jaw, which he clearly wasnt as the writer makes note. "The fight was one of the most uneven and discouraging that the city has ever known." "Ketchel never figured for a single second."

When the pictures were released the same arguments were made again that the knockdown blow looked suspicious and that most felt Johnson had dropped to make the pictures more dramatic.

Two weeks before he died Ketchel was interviewed in the Ozarks and despite having publicly pretended to have asperations for a rematch with Jack Johnson he said that the championship would die with Johnson and that Johnson was unbeatable. He stated that after he was knocked out he had been a physical wreck for six months. He stated that for three weeks after the fight he could stand to eat nothing more solid than soup and that he could not sleep at night because he had nightmares and shuddered at the pain he endured during the contest. "If you think you know anything about pain get in front of one of Jack Johnson's knock out blows and see if you dont learn something new about how much a fellow can ache."