Did Jack Johnson take a dive against Willard?

Mot so much. He was older & not well trained, & won almost all of the first 15 rounnds, still ahead at 20. He just wilted in a long fight in the heat.
He should have trained more seriously for the fight.

 

The fight was kosher and the ko genuine, Willard knocked out Johnson's gold teeth during the fight and Jess took a lot of early punishment before he wore down the old champion.
Johnson was 37 years old and in no condition for a 45 rounds fight,in fact he hadn't been in top shape since 1910 for the Jeffries fight.
Johnson carried the fight to Willard trying to put him out, but the Kansan weathered the punishment.
Once Johnson found he could not stop the giant he was effectively beaten.
The referee Jack Welch said had he been called on to render a decision over 20 rounds he would have awarded the fight to Johnson.
Personally I think it's one of Jack's best performances.
Adam Pollack's 2 books on Johnson,"The Rise" & "The Reign", tell you all you'll ever need to know on the subject of Jack Johnson.

 

I think that the argument for Johnson taking a dive is so weak, that we have to assume for practical purpouses that the figth was on the level.

How does it effect Johnsons legacy?

Probably not particularly drasticaly.

All of the other great heavyweigth champions, prior to Lewis, were prety beatable at the same age.

 

I can't see johnson waiting that long to hit the floor if he had agreed to take a dive it just doesn't make sense

 

no and no

 

The footage itself discredits Johnson's dive claim. He got away with it for years because all most people had seen of the fight was that photo of him on the canvas covering his eyes. It was actually one of his most impressive (filmed) performances, and he pretty much pounded Willard for 20 rounds. If he was going to tank it, surely he'd have just collapsed in a heap with the first punch that grazed him rather than expending all that energy.

 

No. Johnson was hurt badly from a body shot the round before he was KO'd, and pressed the action the best he could in the earlier rounds.

Willard landed a good one. Jack was out like a fish on a doc...not moving much with his back on a hot mat.

You can't say Johnson would have won if this were 25 or 20 rounds, as Willard would have upped his ante sooner. The surviving films show Willard was winning his share of rounds well before the KO. Johnson could not deal with Willard's length nor could he use clinching to his advantage vs. a much bigger opponent.

 

We don't have to say Johnson would have won had it been 20 rounds, we have the referee's opinion that he would have awarded the decision to Johnson if it had been a 20rounds fight . Willard would have upped the ante had the bout been shorter but Johnson was still reasonably strong up to the 20th. He would have been able to go with pace.
Willard played a waiting game absorbing punishment,a smart move because there was no way Johnson could have gone 45rounds.But stop pretending the fight was close up to the 20th Johnson was in a clear lead.

 

nope, JJ was simply shot by then and didn't want to admit it.


had the skills but the flesh was weak

 

You idiot. Tactics chance when there are 45 rounds. Willard fights differently if it was 20. He would not play the waiting game nor would he have to as Johnson could not hurt him.

I posted a link to many round here and asked you to score it with me. You passed. I think I know why.

 

I've never really understood why Johnson agreed to 45 rounds when it was bound to favour his opponent, especially in Havana. He had other championship fights scheduled for less.

 

I feel there's a chance Johnson could have got himself upright before ten, but then what was the point? He had been unnaturally aggressive in trying to get rid of a big problem, round after round. The theory of a dive is equally as weak as the legend of Dempsey's loaded gloves.

What is of interest is how Johnson, even this bloated incarnation, could go on the front foot and fire combinations. It gives us an idea of how he would tackle super-heavyweights in fantasy fights. After waiting for Jess to lead he pushed off to fire many hooks. Another example is how he would draw the cross then return with a right, left, right combination. Jess was punching very straight and carefully that hot afternoon which shows how good Johnson's grasp of range was.

 

Most of the top heavyweights in history lost their titles to guys who were considered not as good as they were at their best.

It's not that common for a great champ to lose his title to another great champ (Dempsey-Tunney, Liston-Ali, Frazier-Foreman, Foreman-Ali, Holyfield-Lewis).

Typically, it's more like Ali loses the title to Spinks. Tyson loses to Douglas. Wlad Klitschko loses to Sanders. Vitali Klitschko loses to Byrd. Holmes loses to Spinks. Sharkey loses to Carnera. Baer loses to Braddock. Patterson loses to Johansson. Holyfield loses to Moorer AND Ruiz. Lewis loses to McCall AND Rahman. And Johnson loses to Willard.

Can that loss to an ordinary guy affect a great fighter's all-time standing?

Sometimes it does. Depends on the situation, of couse.