Jack Dempsey and Harry Wills, the timeline

I'm not trying to prove my point ,I did that when I posted Wills' resume from 1920 to1926.
I'm responding to a request by you.

NB New thread coming up!

 

They must have envisaged a lot of media interest in a
Tunney v Wills fight as a final eliminator to face
Champ Dempsey, because Wills was offered $250,000 to take the fight.:think

 

80,000 people paid to see Firpo challenge Dempsey.The gate was $ 1.25million
.
Dempsey got $468.750 Firpo $ 156.260

Gibbons:
Dempsey got$255,000 Gibbons $7.500


Carpentier :1st million dollar gate.$1.789.235
Dempsey got $ 300,000 Carpentier $200,000

Someone must have thought they were worth paying to see.:think

 

Wills looked bad beating Fipro and Madden? I thought he won every round of both fights, and knocked down Fipro twice? :huh

Do you classify getting knocked out of the ring by another fighter and coming back to win the fight as looking good?

 

What Dempsey got paid to fight Gibbons is in no way indicative of the demand to see that fight. Hence the absolute failure of the promotion and why it was held in Montana of all places.

When Firpo himself is trying to get out of the fight with Dempsey and admitting that Wills deserves it more that says enough for me.

In arguing the validity of the million dollar gates you are arguing apples and oranges as to who was Dempsey's top challenger. It also ignores the simple fact that the HW championship was always the marquee division and by keeping Dempsey on the shelf for 2 yrs (Gibbons and Firpo) created a demand to see him in an era when movies were difficult to see outside of the state the fight took place in, radio coverage was limited, and there was no internet or TV. Restrict the supply (seeing the champion in action) and the demand (what people will pay for his service, and how many of those people will pay) goes up. Simple economics. Your list alone of the fights that qualified Carpentier as a challenger for Dempsey had four fights that took place nearly a decade earlier, one of which, the most important one, was an extremely controversial DQ win. Another of those fights came against a MW who regularly weighed 154 pounds and who Carpentier had all he could handle against. The only other fight you listed was a probable fix against a fat aging LHW... If we are going all the way back to 1913 to try to legitimize a challenger then we can stack Wills' record far and away above anyone you listed (and his is already a better one). Thats how desperate you are to try to prove that Carpentier DESERVED a title shot as much as Wills or was as good a contender. Ive never denied that Carpentier was more popular and that the Dempsey fight was simply too big not to make. The popularity of a fighter has nothing to do with his worth or standing. Ask Arturo Gatti. More importantly Wills would have been favored to make a million dollar gate against Dempsey as well so again, if you are arguing who could have drawn more we arent talking about a huge gulf between who Dempsey actually fought and Wills, so again, the question is why were these men chosen over Wills and the answer is always because they were percieved as easier opponents for Dempsey, which I illustrated by press reactions.

And you keep on mentioning this challenge by Tunney but completely ignore or refuse to even acknowledge what Tunney himself admitted and that was that his challenge of Wills was simply for publicity and that he NEVER had any intention of actually going through with a fight with Wills. Period. So that $250,000 was nothing but thin air. The sad fact is you are using the same tactics and following in the same footsteps as a bunch of chicken **** racists who practiced the old bait and switch and loved to use redirection in order to divert people from the obvious. The simple idea that Wills, whose shadow was cast over Dempsey from 1919 through 1926, wasnt Dempsey's top challenger for that duration is a ludicrous, indefensible argument, which youve proven better than I ever could. But go on believing that Carpentier squeeking by little Jeff Smith in 1913 actually had some bearing on him getting a title shot in 1921 over Harry Wills. :nut

 

Tunney drew the color line. I've read he was an elitist snob.

 

He knocked Firpo down once, hitting him after the referee told them to break.Firpo was in poor condition for that fight and has a roll of fat round his waist.Both men are slow.
One paper the next day headlined with :
" "Harry Wills No Match For Champion Dempsey"
James Dawson in the NY Times said :
"None who saw last nights battle can doubt that Dempsey would have annihilated Wills 4 years ago,3 years ago, 1 year ago"

The clip of Wills v Madden shows that Madden has no trouble landing on Wills.Madden has a 19ko% it would be decidedly different if Dempsey was landing those punches. Dempsey kod Firpo in under4 minutes, during that brief time Firpo was on the floor for a total of ten times,Id say that's pretty impressive and no one said afterwards:
Jack Dempsey No Match For Harry Wills!

 

No I am illustrating that there was a real demand by the general public for those matches to take place ,otherwise they would not have commanded such gates and purses. You haven't proven that Wills was the number one challenger for 6 years.
During Dempsey's reign Wills feasted on the carcasses of old black names that were decidedly past their sell by date.
Clark ,Langford and McVey.

He met Clark 5 times.
During Dempsey's Reign Clark:
Had 24 fights winning just 7 and was ko'd 5 times.
He lost toJack Thompson 3 times.Jack Johnson's old sparring partner Bert kenney5-6-1,Meehan,Kid Norfolk5 times.Langford,Mcvey,jimmy Darcy 28-18-24and Jamaica Kid
6-8 -24 Clark retired in 1924 .
7 years too late!

Kid Norfolk
You say Dempsey ducked Norfolk, let's examine that
assertion. During Dempsey's Reign Norfolk:
Had 68 fights very impressive, approx 10 of those were against heavyweights/lhv's ,or what passed for heavies in the 1920's.The only wins of distinction against the bigger men on his sheet during those seven years are 3 wins over 15-3-0 John Lester Johnson .
And a dsq over Harry Greb in which both weighed 172lbs, he also lost to Greb in1922 even though he was 18lbs the bigger man,but you would know the circumstances of these Greb fight s better than anyone.

In 1922 Norfolk was stopped by Wills in 2 rds the spectators claimed they never saw the punch that ko'd him.Wills was 6 inches the taller man and 36lb s heavier than Norfolk.

In 1923 Norfolk lost to battling Jim McCreary 13-9-1
1924 He was stopped by Tommy Gibbons
1925 kod byBob Lawson179lbs in 1 round.
1925 kod by 166lbs Frank moody in 4 rds


Dempsey ducked him? WHY??????:huh
You don't need me to go into Langford and McVey's records during Dempsey's reign, no sane man would pretend they were not damaged goods by then.

Bill Tate

Dempsey's sparring partner ,Wills fought Bill 5 times ,3 wins, 1 loss, 1 draw.
In conclusion Wills notable wins over live bodies, during Dempsey's reign are the following:

Fred Fulton ko 3 rounds Fulton had earlier been destroyed by Dempsey in 23 seconds.
Luis Firpo w 10 dec Firpo had been kod by Dempsey inside 4 minutes during that brief spell he was on the floor 10 times.

Charley Weinert

Harry Wills kod Weinert in2 rounds in1925
During Dempsey's reign, Weinert was beaten by:
Jim MaloneyL ko3 rds 1926
Luis Firpo 1923L ko 2rds
GeneTunney 1922 L ko 4rds
Gene Tunney 1922L dec 12 rds
Harry Foley 1922L tko
Billy Miske 1922 dec L 12rds
Harry Greb 1922 L tko
Harry Greb 1921 Ldec
Al Roberts 1919 L dec .


Bartley Madden

Harry Wills beat Madden over 15rds in1924
During Dempsey's Reign Madden was beaten by:
Dave Magill 1925 dsq
Tommy Gibbons 1921 L10
Harry Greb 1921 L10
Bob Roper 1921 L10
Charley Weinert 1920 L10
Harry Greb 1920 L10
Fred Fulton 1920 L6
Bill Brennan 1920 L10
Battling Levinsky 1919 L10
Joe Jeannette 1919 Ldsq 4rd

So,during Dempsey's title tenure, [makes a change from reign,] Wills' claim as the number one contender rests on these four wins?

Sorry, I don't buy it.
Now I'll let the other interested posters decide for themselves.

 

He was a snob, that bit is correct