The Middleweights,WW's and LW's of 1890 to 1910

I want to start a new series of threads, with lists and discussion about the best fighters of each of the main weight divisions decade by decade, as I now believe that ATG lists that include vast differences in time involving four, five six generations of boxers by weight or p4p as ridiculous beyond the extreme and really for me or anyone to even bother with that sort of thing is a waste of time, the eras are so different, especially from our current era that comparisons are impossible, maybe they are fun but they are not worthy of serious discussion.

I said "by decades" so why am I going from 1890 to 1910 here and why start at MW, WW and LW ?....... as for the first part the earliest days of recognized champs in the original divisions the dates vary during the 1890's and up to 1910 gloved fighting evolved slowly and they are basically the same generation. We will run into difficulties along the way with many fighters primes sitting across the late part of one decade and tye early part of the next but in that case we can chat about those guys and rate them in one or both decades based on merit during the time period. As for why i am starting with the MW's, to Lw's ?... cos I bloody well feel like it thats why, at least I am starting from the beginning...:happy

So to the fighters, in the middleweight division we start with champion Jack Demsey the non pareil and end with a horrible shooting murder of one, Messers Stanley Ketchell, he of the Thors hammer fist..... in the WW's we start with the aptly named Mysterious Billy Smith and end up with Harry Lewis and Mike "Twin" Sullivan. and the Lightweights we begin with Jack McAuliffe and end up with Adolph "Ad" Wolgast........ in between these great fighters are some absolute all time legends of the game, men like Joe Gans, Joe Walcott, Tommy Ryan, Frank Erne, Battling Nelson, George "Kid" Lavigne, Owen Moran, Matty Mathews, Rube Ferns, Honey Mellody, Kid McCoy, Bob Fitzsimmons, Billy Papke and of course there is Sam langford who started off a lot lighter when he turned pro.. There are other fabulous fighters but i have named enough for now and all those were title holders during this period excepting Owen Moran.

So lets have your suggestions, each weight division I will limit to a top Dozen, you are welcome to make lists of your own or to simply throw comments in on guys you think should be considered or to just chat in general as long as it's related to the thread.

Next I will do a thread on the Little guys from the same time period and then the Light Heavies and Heavies which during this time period the Light Heavies were considered not very inportant a division and deemed basically as Heavyweights, after all Fitzy and Burnsey were tiny yet held the big title.

 

OK I shall add another name in each weight category. Lightweight - Jimmy Britt. Welterweight - Dixie Kid and Middleweight - Mike Donovan.

 

OK mate, you already know i would put Darcy up in that ATG slot and i have no doubt he was going to knock Mike Gibbons out but as for this thread mate I am going to take all names out that don't fit into the time period on this thread but use those names when we get to the Thread I will do one the MW's of the teens decade (actually like this thread it will cover the same three weight divisions otherwise this will never get finished lol.

Fact is that I consider nearly every name you have there as ATG's apart from Lou Bogash who I know nothing about,,, Johnny Wilson, Young peter jackson... a very good un but his resume does not put him there.... Hugo Kelly cos I know nothing about him (obviously if i see he is great I will change my mind immediately. A couple others i need more knowledge of, especially Jack Twin Sullivan who I presume is Mike Twin Sullivans Twin. Basically you have too many tiers I think... I would narrow them down to just three. ATG's... The greats and the Top Men or whatever word fits.... below there are the good fighters and then the journeymen and then last and definately the LEAST... THE BUMS there is no need for us to bother with the Journeymen and the BUMS... :happy:bbb:tired:hey

 

Oh yeah McGrain, if you can help with the welterweights and the lightweights for this 1890's to 1910 period we can try to make the lists and move to the next thread on the little guys.... Feathers, bantams and the flys...... but I might lump them in all together I think because reports and knowledge of all but the very great is very hard to find in this timeslot... in the long run my threads from decade to decade should help your own projects a lot. I personally am moving away from the fantasy matchups to matching up those top guys from guys the realistically could have fought.... so we have guys used to fighting 20 rounds or more with small gloves in one class,,, 15 round fighters ...... to the 12 rounders and big fat gloves of todays boxers, it is because conditions, like length of fights and glove sizes means that you needed different techniques, what works well in a 12 round fight with big fat gloves would end up in disaster if you suddenly have to fight a 25 rounder with 4 ounce gloves, ie keep you hands up in a peek a boo style in a 25 rounder with 4 oz gloves would mean your arms will feel like they weigh 200 kilos and before that happens you would find that the other guy is sticking his left in you face with ease even in a peek a boo defence cos with 4 oz gloves you need to understand and master parrying and blocking and whole different set of skills.... this is what moderns fail to grasp,,, they just see earlu fight films and assume they are hopeless and skilless when in fact they are the exact opposite....

 

Well you certainly have mate because he was actually a featherweight who sometimes fought lightweights but rarely was he ever heavier than a featherweight limit, in fact Featherweight was his normal everyday weight, I don't think he ever bothered to cut weight. Mendoza is right, Dixon and every other man had massive trouble landing blows on Griffo, he was just so fast he was even able to move just enough so you couldn't even land a body shot on him and there were opponents who said they couldn't hit him yet he could hit them at any time, he stood right there in front of you and just kind of wriggled from side to side to avoid blows Benny Leonard said he was greatest pure boxer to ever live. Joe Gans couldn't beat Griffo in two fights and only managed to win the third well after alcohol had caught up to him, he would often be very drunk or with a massive hangover upon entering the ring......... He didn't lose a single fight in his first 167 fights..... he is probably the greatest exponent of boxing in it's purest form that there ever was, and he could hit hard enough to knock some guys out and hard enough to discourage brawling with him, he is also likely the fastest hands and the fastest head movement in boxing history, he was a pure bloody freak, and the original Will O the Wisp... it is likely the closest thing you will ever get to see anything like Griffo is watching Willie pep in his prime only that Griffo was even faster than the lightning in a bottle that was Pep.

 

oops :-deal:yikes

 

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This is not a final list of the middleweights consisting of the names we have here so far I will have two tiers, one for possible #1 spot and those who probably should be in the 12 or the dirty dozen if you prefer

1st Tier - Stanley Ketchell, Bob Fitzsimmons, Nonpariel Jack Dempsey, Sam Langford
Tier two - Jack Blackburn, Tommy Ryan, Kid McCoy, Young Peter Jackson, Joe Walcott, Billy Papke, Jack "Twin" Sullivan, "Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, Tommy Burns​

Jack Blackburn is really a welterweight and so is Joe Walcott and Tommy Ryan but Ryan held the MW title, Tommy Burns and Jack O'Brien fought at MW early in their careers and so did Langford, Sam Langford is a real chance for the very top spot, while he was under the middleweight maximum Sam was fighting and beating MW's, light heavies and heavyweights, he fought everybody and anybody, while still a MW he even fought Jack Johnson. Blackburn although a WW fought middleweights too and so did Ryan and Jack O'Briens record when he was a middle was good and so was Tommy Burns before he bulked right up, Tommy Ryan is going to rate higher at WW than at MW I feel. This is one hell of a division ain't it.

So there it is, hopefully we can find some more MW's from this 20 year period to put up as contenders. Boxrec is handy but most of the time the fighters weights are not recorded there but enough info is there to show me thereabouts which division a Langford or a Walcott etc is at a certain period, with Sam it isn't so hard to trace but with Blackburn nearly impossible.

Guys I need your input. I want to get onto the Welterweights soon but not until the MW list is more stable.

 

Does anyone have any more middleweight contenders to add to my list above ?.. Klompton ? any guys I missed ?... Burt ?,,,,,,,,, McVey ? anyone ?