Heavyweights get the shaft on P4P lists.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Hookie, Aug 20, 2015.


  1. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    Just because a guy wins titles in several weight classes doesn't mean he is a P4P great. Sometimes a fighter needs to leave a weight division because the competition is too tough in his weight division.

    Bobby Czyz was a decent LHW, he was considered one of the best if not the best at CW during his title reign at CW. Joey Gamache won titles in 4 weight classes but never beat a top fighter.

    Muhammad Ali fought at HW. Is he not a great P4P fighter? What about Evander Holyfield? Holyfield was a CW World Champ first were he was often the bigger man in the ring. At HW he was often the smaller man in the ring.
     
  2. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I do not think they get shafted; I had at least six 'full time' Heavies in my top 100 and at least another ten who fought at Heavyweight in their careers.
     
  3. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Indeed looking at my top 10:

    10 Carlos Monzon
    9 Benny Leonard
    8 Ezzard Charles
    7 Joe Louis
    6 Muhammad Ali
    5 Harry Greb
    4 Bob Fitzsimmons
    3 Roberto Duran
    2 Henry Armstrong
    1 Ray Robinson

    There are two full timers and another two who built part of their legacy fighting in the division; Greb too also had some bouts against Heavyweights.

    That is half the fighters!
     
  4. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    If they "get the shaft" it's because the vast majority of heavyweight champions have lacked the speed, agility, and skill of the best smaller fighters.
     
  5. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    Ezzard Charles fought at MW and is considered the best LHW ever by many people... he was also a very good HW Champ. It would make sense that he'd be considered a P4P great by most people.

    Greb was another guy who eventually fought at HW... not really a HW.

    Tunney was a top LHW before winning the HW title. Michael Spinks was a great LHW who also won the HW world title.

    Ali was exceptional... but he also won Gold as a LHW in the 1960 Olympics.
     
  6. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    Louis was also exceptional but small by modern day standards. Much of his P4P status had to do with how well we think he would do (and how well he actually did do) vs. guys much bigger than him.
     
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    No they don't, not at all.
     
  8. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Heavies are horrendously OVERrated. What lists are YOU reading?
     
  9. FartWristedBum

    FartWristedBum I walk this Earth like a bum Full Member

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    Blue touch paper lit! Jeeeezzzz......I'm with others declaring the prejudice against HW fighters in P4P lists is a non-issue.
    If anything, there's positive discrimination going on cos HW is the division which gets the most exposure.
     
  10. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    They definitely get the shaft. HW is the real boxing. The other weights are interesting, in the same way that Ronda Rousey is interesting. But there's truth in the old expression that pfp is really just a way to make small fighters feel better about themselves.
     
  11. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    Did you get lost on your way to the General Boxing Forum, by any chance? Just curious.
     
  12. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Prefer General Boxing, but been on a big boxing blog kick and needed a fix. Don't worry, I'm sure I'll get sick of it and drop it eventually.
     
  13. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    This.
     
  14. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    My point is that just because a man is big and uses his size well... why does that mean that he is not a great "P4P" fighter?

    Naturally some of the great smaller HWs are going to be on the list... but why not a guy like Lennox Lewis or even one or even both of the Klitschko's?

    Take a guy like Tommy Hearns. He's one of my all-time favorites. He was a monster at 147 and even 154. He was taller than most, had a wicked long reach that was way longer than most, and his upper body was huge compared to others in his weight class. At 160 and above these advantages started to go away... he was stopped twice at 160. Anyway, he really was a great fighter with excellent power but as he fought bigger men the fighters he faced could for the most part handle his punches better than the smaller guys. Still, he was good enough to be competitive even as a CW despite his age at the time. Does he get more credit in a P4P sense at 160 and above than he gets at 147 and 154? At 147 and 154 he could just bully most fighters.
     
  15. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Hearns still displays skills that many heavies don't though. Lighter men almost always do.
    And I don't think realistically Hearns belongs anywhere near a top-10 P4P list.
    Louis and Ali are the cream of the crop at heavy but only at a real stretch can I see one or the other being in the top 10. I just don't think they belong.

    What did Louis do better than say, Alexis Arguello? Where would you have Arguello in your P4P list?