Harry Greb-Walker film 1978?

If interested, scroll down a couple of pages on this link to see some stills from Greb-Allentown Joe Gans:

http://www.ringwise.com/archive.html#greb

And here's a still from his tape of Greb sparring Dempsey:

http://www.ringwise.com/images/Dempsey-Greb-Sparring-15.jpg


:bbb :nut

 

I can only echo the others good wishes Mate.ATB.

 

Like I said, believe what you want. Purchase it if you are so convinced. But your points and the supposed forensic ****ysis are beyond silly. The film is shot in the daytime, the height of a fighter based on that footage couldnt possibly be determined accurately because when you transfer film you can control the aspect ratio, there is no telling how closely this matches the exact height of the fighters much less the fact that when you copy a vhs (which this is, and several generations old i might add) depending on the vcr, dvd, and tv you can get a slightly different height/width, nevermind that some dvds and tvs squash and stretch aspect ratio to match output, so its ludicrous to suggest you can accurately judge height based a several generations old vhs copy. Same with body width. And, if these so called experts are so sure of these heights, weights etc, and that the opponent matches then quit ducking the question and ask why noltimier was trying to pass this off as Greb-Tate earlier:

https://web.archive.org/web/20130911191041/http://ringwise.com/

I find it highly dubious that they could be so convinced this is 5'10" Gans when he was earlier convinced it was 6' 6" Tate.

How exactly are they determining the referee is the same?? There are no photographs of this fight to match (which itself begs the question of why a fight was so unimportant that even local papers didnt send photographers but someone went to the expense to film it).

How on a poor multigeneration old vhs copy are they able to determine that one of the fighters has a half inch innoculation scar on his upper arm? This is even stupider than you pretending you can see a bruise on Jack Johnsons cheek against ketchel (in a film thats much better quality btw).

How do you know its the correct round that Greb got wobbled when the entire fight isnt there and rounds arent listed (and frankly we dont know its even a fight, which is why kurt originally passed it off as sparring footage).

What exactly is even the provenance of this footage. Why exactly are they so convinced its Greb-Gans? Or Greb-Tate? Because its a white fighter with boxing gloves on sgainst a black fighter sometime within 20 yrs of Greb being alive? Its stupid.

Like i said, believe what you want but ive forgotten more about both greb and films than noltimier or anyone else hes had look at this turd and i can tell you with a high degree of certainty its a con, i wont even be diplomatic and say hes mistaken because hes been caught pulling this con before. THREE OTHER TIMES! If you, or these so called experts are convinced i would say put your money where your mouth is, LOL, it would be the best lesson you could learn.

 

The reason I'm thinking its real is the others who have seen and examined it are names I trust.

Klompton has issues with the guy who purchased the film. Right or wrong, I think his judgement is clouded because of it.

 

When it comes to fight films, the bonafides and the provenance of them.I'll go with Klompton over a group of self appointed experts who are vain enough to think that paying to be an IBRO member is worth while and something to brag about.
Klompton has tons of experience with old fight films and what is our there and what is not.
The onus is now on you to provide something tangible to support your stance..

 

Didn't you say night before?

Your skipping points about facial recognition, and the rain. Greb and Gans's height are well known Why would be be hard to determine if one guy is 2" or so taller when the stand together up close and the ring. Furthermore the two have different builds

No comment there. How are you sure they are the same films? Have you even seen them?

?

The ref was Frank McCracken. He was in at least 23 bouts as the 3rd many in the Philly area. Would it be that hard to see a find picture of him, and match it to the person on film? Do tell?

Did you not read or know that home camera for video's were available in the 1920's? Think Marciano vs Vingo. Also it is plausible that a legend like Greb could have been filmed far more than whatever records you have seen.

That would be re-search, Klompton. And note the round Greb is hurt on matches the round for the film. Coincidence? I think not

Location: Artillery Park, Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania, USA

Referee: Frank McCracken
Judge: Ellis Riskin
Judge: Yankee Evans

The last five rounds of the bout were fought in a drizzling rain. According to the Pittsburgh Post, Gans won only one round, the sixth, although two or three others could have been called even. Greb was as fast as ever, showering blows on his bewildered foe. Gans did land a steaming right in the 6th that hurt Harry and kept him under control for the rest of the round. Greb was in complete command in the last four rounds, when he opened his bag of tricks fully and Harry got a great ovation when he left the ring. The report in the Wilkes-Barre Record also felt that Greb won in easy manner, also only giving Gans the 6th round.

What a crazy comment. I'll close with a question. It seems like your completely dismissive without actually seeing it. You can not say you have never been wrong before on Boxing.

The question is if you are reviewing a film that could be Greb, what steps would you take that were not taken below?

1- Height of Greb matches
2- Body width matches
3- Same chest split
4- same unusual nibbles location
5- same dimensions of face
6- same referee
7- same opponent
8- same weather (drizzle ) conditions
9- same punch that wobbled Greb (right hand)
10- correct round getting wobbled (6th)
11- inoculation of left arm
12- same fighting stance.
13- correct era box camera at ringside.

 

This goes against what Klompton is saying below unless its a still photo snap shot from the film. Also are there any known photos of Greb Sparring with Dempsey?

It seems Klompton has a personal issue with the owner and doesn't even want the names of the people who can verify it. Very strange, it could be his way of trying to limit business and undermined the credibility of a person he just does not like. If I have an interest in a topic and something never seen comes up, I'd at the very least want to confirm it. He's stone walling it.

 

I offered the man a chance to learn more. He simply ignored it via PM. If there was an unseen film on Johnson, would you at the very least want to know who has seen it? He does not. How odd.

Maybe Klompton has already tried to reach out and had the door slammed in his face? I don't know.

While well researched Klompton at times has a chip on his shoulder, and does not out rank the 3 names ( NOT THE OWNER ) that have seen it . Nor has he even seen the video to make a judgement.

 

They are stills taken by Noltimier of the fight he claims to own of Greb v Allentown Joe Gans:
http://www.ringwise.com/archive.html#greb

The link Klompton provided shows that Noltimier previously advertised these stills as being from Greb v Bill Tate:
https://web.archive.org/web/20130911191041/http://ringwise.com/

 

If you come up with incontrovertible proof of this fight I will be the first to say I am wrong and you are right.

Until then------------------------------------------

 

I didnt say there were no photos of Noltimiers film. I said there are no photos of the Greb-Gans fight in question to compare with that film, which is why i ask how the hell they could pretend to know it was the same ref and by extension that he was wearing the same outfit.

There are photos of Greb sparring Dempsey and none match Kurts film, but more to the point i have the same training clip Kurt does, I got it directly from the archive it was found in. At the beginning of the clip it has a catalogue number which can be matched to the title and it states clearly that its Dempsey sparring Tillie kid Herman in 1926 prior to Tunney. You can then match that information with news accounts of that camp and see that others Dempsey is sparring who can also be identified match that camp as well. Anyone who wants can check the desctiptions of these films from that archive easily but kurt either didnt or already knew what it was and passed it off as Greb-Dempsey just as he had done earlier with Dempsey-Malone, which was identified as such on the actual film.

If thats the type of guy you want to put your faith in, ignorant or crooked, so be it. I know better.

 

Okay. We'll see how this plays out. Just remember who broke the news first, and don't expect me to prove it since the film is not mine.

 

I am looking for film of Greb and happy to let Klompton have a copy.... as long as he pays me 20 million bucks for it. Grubs have to pay extra... a lot extra.

 

LOL how could you not tell it was Harry from his mug ?

 

You have reading comprehension problems. I said the fight was fought at night. This film is clearly filmed at day. Thats a problem for anyone who believes this is Greb-Gans.

Facial recognition my ass. This is a horrible copy. You are going to tell me from these blobs you can accurately determine that this is indeed Greb and Gans??

I may not be an FBI forensic expert but I dont need to graduate Quantico to see that these are the same screenshots:
http://www.ringwise.com/archive.html#greb
https://web.archive.org/web/20130911191041/http://ringwise.com/

Which begs the question that if this film is so clear and its so conclusive that this is Greb and a 5'10" Gans then how come this black fighter was mistaken for the 6' 6" HW Tate???

Then get us a picture and tell me you can conclusively match him. I'll be right here. In the meantime I can post photos of ten different referees from different eras that match what this guy looks like and none of them would be Frank McCracken either.

Again, Kurt says this is a 16mm film. All he has to do is reproduce a picture of the edge code of this film. Thats all. Simple. It will date it. He wont and I'll tell you why: 1. Because its not a 16mm film. Its a copy of a 35mm film, which means it was professionally shot. 2. He doesnt have the film, film NEVER looks this bad when transferred. Even if this film were originally shot in poor condition it would still have grain, it wouldnt have the wavy lines you can see from a multigenerational VHS copy, it wouldnt have the ridiculous over-exposure from a home film transfer done in the 1980s. None of that. This is what an actual 16mm film transferred from the same era looks like:

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/klompton/vlcsnap-2014-09-10-15h12m54s147_zpsbeb564b5.png

Here is another

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/klompton/vlcsnap-2014-09-10-15h14m31s59_zps24ef3c05.png

Here is a 35mm from nearly 20 years earlier using much more primitive equipment both to film and transfer:

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z335/klompton/vlcsnap-2015-08-15-23h57m57s22_zpsflpci1tg.png

slight difference no? Now lets pretend we are complete morons and that this is a home movie. Tell me, what is the earliest home movie of a boxing match you have ever seen and how was it filmed, quality etc.? Thats what I thought.

How exactly do you know what round it is in the film? There are no ring cards and the film doesnt have intertitles. For all you know what you think is round 6 is actually round 2. Nevermind that a much more significant, and easy way to identify the fight, would be that Kurt says this is the last several rounds of the fight. Ok, in the ninth round Greb did an indian dance during the round against Gans. Is that in the film? Lets see it.

And exactly how or what does this prove? I have the actual ringside reports from both Wilkes-Barre newspapers, not the AP report from the post.

Its crazy to ask what the provenance of a film is when trying to determine its validity? Uhh, thats the first question anyone trying to validate anything would ask: where does it come from, what documentation does it have, and why would you think its what you allege it is (especially after misidentifying it once already). You are embarrassing yourself.

The simple answer to this is the fact that Kurt has a track record for running cons on Greb's name. I may not be able to say Ive never been wrong but I can certainly say that Kurt has been wrong far more often than I have in his quest to identify a Greb film. If hes failed at it every single time, miserably, to the point of ineptitude then why should I blindly believe him this time??

I have numerous films that I have identified and never once have I used any of the ridiculous criteria above that was supposedly used by a supposed FBI forensic expert (I chuckle to myself every time I think about that).

1. Ive already explained how the height cant be matched.
2. Ditto
3. "Chest split"?? hahaha. I didnt realize chests were like fingerprints.
4. "nibbles" I dont even know what you are referring to.
5. See 1 and 2.
6. What makes you think this is the same referee.
7. How can you be so sure this is a 5'10" MW Gans when it was earlier identified by Kurt as a 6'6" HW Tate??
8. Did it only rain once in history?
9. Was Greb the only person to ever get caught with a right hand?
10. You have no way of knowing what round this happened in the film. By Kurts own admission its incomplete.
11. Ridiculous. No way you could identify a tiny inocculation mark from this poor quality film.
12. Same fighting stance as what?? Posed photos of Greb? 40 seconds of him playfully sparring with Jack O'Brien, most of which is grappling?? Or did he compare it with the fighting stance in his other purported Greb films... none of which are of Greb either. Or do you mean the same fighting stance as photos of Gans or the exactly zero films we have of Gans? One of your so called IBRO experts said he thought it was Greb when he watched it because he "IMAGINED THATS WHAT GREB WOULD LOOK LIKE". Wow, some basis.
13. They used cameras like that past world war 2 in some places. And again, where are the photos?? None were published. Unlikely another city would pay to send a photographer to Wilkes-Barre to photograph the fight because it wasnt that big of a deal. Problem is that no papers published photos of the fight. Hmm, inconvenient to have a press photographer ringside taking pictures in the film wouldnt you say?

The bottom line is I could blow this entire argument up six ways from sunday and Ive already done a good job of illustrating just how stupid this whole thing is but believe what you want. Thats what it all boils down to. Some people WANT to believe so bad this is a film of Greb. Its not. Its not even from the right era but I say again, anyone who wants to believe it go ahead and pay money for it. Anyone who does is a sucker and thats just the type of person Kurt feeds on.