Top 50 Middleweight of all Time

Exactly.

I dont know. I may have disparaged him tongue in cheek (along with Australians as a whole in order to get greg's goat in the past) but I think when you remove emotion from the equation Ive been pretty consistent. We can agree to disagree but I dont think its disparaging to state facts. He did avoid several big fights he was offered in the USA in favor of easier bouts. He did benefit from every form of home cooking you can imagine in Australia. He didnt have to make 158 in Australia. Many fighters came back talking about fixes and saying he was overrated. It has never once been proven anywhere by anyone that he knocked out Fred Fulton in sparring, that story originated with Darcy's friend who was known to mythologize about him. He wasnt murdered. He didnt die of a broken heart. There was no conspiracy (at least not here in the USA) to prevent him fighting (he was simply a victim of the circumstances of the times and many of those circumstances he brought on himself). It is a distinct possibility that he would have had difficulty making 158 as he was rapidly putting on weight. Its also true that Gibbons beat all of the big names Darcy beat before Darcy the lone exception being Chip and Gibbons beat upwards of a dozen of the fighters who had defeated Chip before Chip fought Darcy. I dont think its disparaging to state all of that and say that Darcy had true potential but that simply based on what he accomplished at home there are question marks and that what he did accomplish at home, even if it was all completely legit (and even Australian sources admit that McGoorty threw their first fight for gambling reasons) doesnt necessarily make him a lock for one of the greatest in the division.

 

As I have said in reaction to these unfounded claims is that this is simply your version or interpretation of these reports, no doubt thrown about by your buddy Mike Gibbons's camp, Gibbons had many chancs to go to Australia if he was so desperate to do what no other Yank could do. i too have read the very same newspaper reports and I smell a rat, besides you are basically calling Les a coward at worst or a liar at best... talk about disparaging remarks... i have stated the well known and easy to prove fact that Darcy was the target of a well organised SMEAR CAMPAIGN run from the very top of Australian politics, from the prime minister Billy Hughes who wanted conscription so badly he would not accept the Australian public's refusal in the referendum he called another referendum straight away and again the little scumbag was thwarted, this has the result in Hughes joining sides with Baker and McIntosh who also want to destroy the 21 year old, if you deny this then you are either blind or worse, you want to destroy any chance of him getting due recognition. Gibbons was a fighter and fighters always lie when their own status is in danger and it was, darcy was the biggest threat he had to any claims of being the #1 MW. These so called facts you claim in the enclosed quote are not facts at all, they are opinion.

Many fighters came back and claimed fixes ???? who apart from Jeff Smith did so ??? show the links or shut up, you have to be gullible to listen to the disgraced Smith who was clearly beaten by Darcy. the only other fighter who I know changed his story once he got back was Eddie McGoorty, Eddie suffered one of the most severe beatings from Darcy in ring history and unfortunatley for your claim there id FILM of him being SLAUGHTERED in fact McGoorty's career was destroyed and he never again reached the heights he had been to before he met Darcy in the ring... as I said the film itself proves eddie a liar.

I and you have seen at least two reports showing that this event actually took place from an eyewitness, Mick King in fact. I never said Fulton suffered a KO, Sallywinder or Bobby Sinn may have mistakenly said so but they exaggerrated if they claim Fulton was KO'd, I said that Fulton refused to come out for the third round because he was bested by Darcy in a big way and Fulton was hurt.

I also never claimed that Darcy died of a broken heart, I told the truth, he died of septicaemia, blood poisoning caused by losing two teeth in his fight with the heavyweight Harold Harwicke who angered Darcy with that blow that Les Knocked the heavyweight out cold with one huge blow, he became the Australian heavyweight champ with tha shot to Hardwickes jaw. he picked up his teeth and put them back in his mouth and then got to a dentist asap who reset his teeth, no penicillin then and poor antiseptics doomed the young man.

 

James Dean was a great actor, he died young but like Darcy there is enough film evidence of greatness and Dean was great according to most Hollywood experts. Darcy is on film too, wiping the floor with McGoorty, knocking him down three times before the fourth knockdown where Eddie stayed on the floor, exactly as the Australian newspaper reports said happened and these reports were released well before anyone saw the film of the fight. Klompton would have you believe that Australian boxing was so corrupt that it makes the US scene during this period seem innocent, no fixes or corruption in the good old USA.. no siree........... yeah... right. I would bet my lifes savings that compared to the Americans in the boxing world the Australians were amateurs in comparison........... I have just read Senyas post of a of Damon Runyan report where Runyan is convinced that Gibbons cheated in the fix that was the McFarland fight versus Mike Gibbons.... yep the great Mike Gibbons was involved in a fix according to Americas greatest writer of the day.

 

yep you have more than once been over the top in your comments on Australians and deliberately got my goat up, therefore bringing emotion into the equation, you helped to get Bobby Sinn banned and he refuses to ever come back here, Bobby is part of the fabric and an insider in Australian boxing whereas i am not an insider just a historian. Of course you got yourself banned in the process as well, but you are back but Bobby isn't. It's a pity that you can never admit ever being even slightly wrong about anything no matter how well a rebuttal may be against a claim you made. Once you assume your stance you hold on regardless, are you so infallible Steve ?

 

Klompton I am still waiting to hear this amazing proof that Eddie McGoorty threw the first fight with Darcy, it is an incredible claim and you are yet to provide proof. The claim is the most laughable I ever heard, I have film of the fight, and McGoorty was knocked down repeatedly after copping 15 rounds of a horrible beating...... Eddie was making excuses and so are you.

 

Nice to see Tony Zale where he belongs..in tier V below jake Lamotta and the rest of the murderers row

 

Not trying to derail this thread, but in relation to Darcy is the following true and accepted by all:

1. The Fulton Spar - It definitely happened. The extent of the spar is debateable, but either way, it is almost certain that Darcy had the better of the going?

2. The USA fights - Darcy was not allowed to take most of the big fights due to political interference. He could have taken some other fights and to be fair, he did seem to concentrate more on the easy life (wasnt there a theatre tour for a while) than what he did when in Australia.

3. Vs Gibbons - both Darcy and Gibbons were clearly the two standout middleweights at the time of Darcy's death.

4. Lost fights - We were cheated out of a number of good fights. But just for historical reference and history changing what ifs:
Greb - Klompton i am fairly sure admitted that Darcy would have started favourite against Greb if they fought at any time Darcy was alive.
Dempsey - Dempsey himself suggested his handlers were angling for a shot at Darcy. This would have been right around the time of the Jim Flynn fight where Dempsey was KOd in 1. Imagine if Dempsey had taken a dive against Darcy! either way, Darcy would ahve started the betting favourite.
Flynn - After Flynn KOd Dempsey, he substituted for Darcy. If Darcy had been allowed to fight and beat (i think it was Dillon who would have been a scalp himself) he would have started favourite against Dempseys conqueror.
Willard - An aging old giant who probably wasnt as good as most thought. If Darcy had been fighting and winning, particularly if had one the fights i suggested and with him being a previous heavyweight champion of australia, surely he is the big money fight for Willard and the (with hindsight) favourite?
Wills - No colour line existed in Australia and ducking wasnt in Darcy's nature.

5. What if potential - Have to agree with Klompton in that there are a lot of question marks. He has established himself as a great. But there are question marks. He may very well have been the absolute greatest ever. We wont ever know whether this is true, but unlike with 99% of other fighters, we cant rule it out either. Winning the fights i listed above, which would all be winnable fights would certainly change this.

 

LaMotta and Zale I would both put in tier IV

 

Yep no colour line was in Australia, Darcy had fought Dave Dupena and annihilated him. Dupena was an African American and Langfords pupil........................... gee hang on, that must have been in a movie eh SuzieQ because we all know a white fighter could never beat a black one....... gee I retract it... he couldn't have fought a Dave Dupena. atsch

Pretty good post mate, some of Klomptons "questions" are real questions and some of them little more than slurs on his character which is one thing we know for certain, Darcy was a happy go lucky kid who laughed and smiled during his fights and took everything in his stride, even when he knew he was dying.

 

Lamotta belongs higher than Zale. Look at the difference in resumes.

 

McGrain i just cannot see this guy above Darcy any way you wanna look at it, Darcy didn't have losses against very ordinary fighters and that's a major difference and the fact Darcy was so damn good at just age 20 means you have to really have a big imagination to not see him as twice as good by age 24. I do understand boxing is a very tough business though and can understand why any fighter has some losses against guys in the same class level. I shouldn't just use Darcy here either, there are many fighters I see with better records and deserve higher ranking than Lytell and Marshall who I also did a big post on showing why i thought he was overrated (but still very good), there are just so many very great middleweights and a vast amount of fighters who did similar things to Lytell and Marshall. Hey this is your list though but for your sake the longer and more thoroughly you research and compare all these middleweights the better your list will look, but you and I know you can't please everybody but try and keep it from being biased towards Americans like that bloke I don't wanna mention who thinks all Americans better than any fighter from everywhere else.

 

You did point out s couple of things I was unaware of so points for that.

 

Oh, hello thread. How did you escape my notice for well over a month?

Bookmarked.