Ray Mancini vs Esteban dejesus

I like both guys. Mancini more since he's from my generation.
Skillwise I c more in DeJesus and wonder how good he could've been if he weren't a druggie his whole life

 

The difference between Dejesus and Douglas is that Douglas also lost to Mike White and Jesse Ferguson and Lou Savarese. Dejesus lost to two Hall of Famers, a champion up a weight class in his very last fight. His only other loss was to Antonio Gomez who was good enough to beat a young Antonio Cervantes so no shame in that.

Anyway I'm not arguing that Dejesus is great. I'm saying he's very good and Mancini is good. That's about it.

 

Gomez was briefly a featherweight titleholder. So DeJesus lost to a featherweight champ, two junior welterweight champs, and he lost in two of three lightweight title challenges.

And the guys he defended against weren't very good.

If DeJesus was the second-best lightweight of the 70s, then that was a truly bad decade for lightweights. Because DeJesus is Paul Spadafora with a little more pop.

I'm sticking with Mancini.

 

Dejesus fought nothing like Paul Spadafora.

he was a beautifully balanced, smooth and very technically skilled boxer-puncher with really good power in the left hook.

A really top-notch fighter as a lightweight.

He had his weaknesses...strength and stamina while solid, weren't on the great level of the rest of his atributes-he was a small lightweight that could probably have cut down to feather for a while had he fought in recent decades-and that told against a physical beast like Duran(or a HUGE great 140lber like Cervantes) and probably would against various other lightweight greats like Ortiz, Williams, Armstrong etc

Ray Mancini was a fine fighter who i often think gets a bit underrated because of the "golden boy" type of hype he got while active, but he wasn't as gifted as Dejesus and inferior in nearly every manner.Not nearly good enough to take advantage of Esteban in the manner Roberto or Antonio did.

The closest fighter in style to Dejesus he fought was Bramble, who's solid toughness and stamina, shorter textbook countering and generally better fundamentals got the better of Ray.

Esteban would go a few better than him, be too smooth and educated a boxer-puncher and seal a clear decision or late stoppage in a good fight imo.

 

But you've made no argument for Mancini. Mancini lost to Arguello, Haugen, Camacho, and Bramble twice. If we're comparing losses to champions Mancini lost to a featherweight champion, and a junior lightweight champion, and three to lightweights (one of whom was only a champion because of Mancini). You haven't argued that he beat better guys other than to say that if we throw out his best win and leave Mancini ' s then Ray had the better W column (and if we throw out Frazier ' s win over Ali I'm sure plenty of people would rate over him). The champions Mancini beat were Arturo Frias and Bobby Chacon with Chacon coming up a weight. DeJesus beat Guts and Peppermint Fraser with Dejesus being the one to move up.

 

I think Dejesus would win,

Mancini would start fast and then fade after about 10 rounds, think he would get stopped

 

I'm not saying he fought like Paul Spadafora, I'm saying he was Paul Spadafora (just another champ) with a little more pop.

DeJesus wasn't a great fighter. People laser focus on the first Duran fight. But when there weren't any titles on the line, a lot of guys had a one good night against Duran in his 30-year career.

Watch any of DeJesus's other fights. There's nothing there that stands out over anyone of the dozens of other champs who held titles at the weight.

He's just another beltholder. No more, no less.

If DeJesus was the second-best lightweight of the 70s, then the 70s were awful for lightweights (like the 40s were for heavyweights).

The 80s brought a laundry-list of hall of famers - like Arguello, Chavez, Whitaker, Mancini ... and great fighters who were hot and cold - like Rosario, Camacho, Ramirez, Bramble, O'Grady, Kenty ... and floaters who popped up from 130 - like Chacon and Boza-Edwards and Roger Mayweather.

I don't think I'd pick DeJesus over ANYONE I just listed from the 80s, except maybe Boza.

People read way too much into that one Duran win. WAY too much, IMO. Duran proved fight one was a fluke in fight two and fight three. Hell, he might have proved it was a fluke in fight one if it was scheduled for more than 10 rounds.

 

Mancini fought in a much better era of lightweights. I'm not holding him up on a pedestal. He didn't unify.

But I've been watching boxing since 1975, and DeJesus was nothing special. Although his career as a lightweight was relatively brief, I feel Mancini was better. A lot of guys in the 80s were better than DeJesus. Mancini's just one of them.

And if you think beating Peppermint Frazer and Guts is a bigger deal than Mancini beating Chacon, that's insane. Chacon was coming off a Fight of the Year win. People were so jacked for that fight, a song was written about it.

Just because Mancini steamrolled him didn't mean it wasn't a highly anticipated fight going in. It just means Mancini was REALLY GOOD.

But, if someone was really jacked and wrote a song about the upcoming DeJesus-Peppermint Frazer fight, I'd love to hear it. (Just kidding. Didn't mean to be a jerk.):bbb

 

Spadafora was ranked for about five years in a time with twice as many belts. He was never consistently the number one or two lightweight; he was often third or first.

Dejesus in the other hand was ranked the number 1 lightweight from 1972 to 1979, except for a few years. The years in which he was not ranked the number 1 lightweight contender he was a top junior lightweight.

 

Then it was a bad era, honestly.

Also, if you think beating Peppermint Frazer and Guts is a bigger deal than Mancini beating Hall of Famer Chacon, that's insane. Chacon was coming off back-to-back Fight of the Year wins. Mancini was a household name. People were so jacked for that fight, a song was written about it.

Just because Mancini steamrolled him didn't mean it wasn't a highly anticipated fight going in or it wasn't expected to be a fight of the year as well. It just means Mancini was REALLY GOOD.

But, if someone was really jacked and wrote a song about the upcoming DeJesus-Peppermint Frazer fight, I'd love to hear it.

(Just kidding. Sorry. Didn't mean to be a jerk.):bbb

I've gotta go. I respect your opinions. I just think the 70s era at lightweight was really weak compared to the 80s and there were a lot of guys who came along right after who were far better than DeJesus ... who, IMO, was just another alphabet champ (like so many others).

 

Dejesus would kill Mancini. Im surprised this even came up. Two different classes of fighters.

 

Yeah, because DeJesus wasn't in the same class as Livingstone Bramble...

And please, spare us that Mancini was washed up. Bramble beat the living **** outta him in their first fight, and looked like he woulda beaten any version of Ray.

Ramirez was not a quick fighter. He simply had a lot of toughness, and power.

DeJesus was a very skilled counterpuncher, and had a solid chin. He'd beat Mancini.

 

This.

Ramirez is by FAR Mancini's best win.

Besides Ramirez, who did Mancini beat? Tiny Chacon? A washed up Ernesto Espana who was TWICE destroyed by Hilmer Kenty prior to the Mancini fight?

 

Dubble:

Please post a Mancini fight in which Ray displayed this kind of talent and skill:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3yynKBLPbQ

DeJesus lost in his prime to two fighters - Duran, and Cervantes. That's the best lightweight of all time, and ARGUABLY the best junior welterweight of all time. Not bad.

Mancini was about 3 levels lower than the likes of Duran, and Cervantes.

And think you're overrating the HELL outta Ray, which is a shame, cause I'm a Mancini FAN!

 

i loved how Dubble posted Dejesus vs Guts as if he's supposed to look bad there:rofl

Christ much of why Dejesus was rated highly when he was active was because most observers that can break a fighter down properly could see the guy was very highly skilled.

Not just because he had a paper win over Duran and everyone was deluded into thinking he was somehow good because of it, but never actually watched anything else.

thb if Dubble and i were discussing boxing in a pub and he made his patronising, presumptious argument to me , i'd have little option but to smash a pint glass into his face.