Ken Norton vs Big Cat Williams

You can add Lyle and Foster to that list ,it doesn't mean they did not hit very hard. If Patterson had gone through with a projected fight with Williams, he may have been the Cat's best ko victim.

 

The fact that Williams got shot in his prime is a detail that never seems to be considered.

 

You're overlooking Norton's fatal flaw - an inability to compete with power punchers. In fact, a tough sub-par fighter like LeDoux was even too much for him. That fight should have been recognized for what it was - Ledoux by stoppage. The Quarry who beat Lyle would have defeated the over-ratted Norton. Lyle would have crushed him and many others also would have sent Ken to dreamland in a round or two. He was ok when he felt like he was in a "safe" fight. The pre-injured Williams would have made short work of Norton.

 

I just scanned an interview with Cleveland Williams from the July 1962 issue of Boxing Illustrated. This was before he'd been shot in the stomach. At the time, Williams was just coming off a TKO7 win over Ernie Terrell. (Williams would knock out Alonzo Johnson in one round as the magazine was going to print and he'd draw with Machen that fall).

At the time, Floyd Patterson was the champion. Sonny Liston was the top contender and would beat Floyd for the title in a few months.

Cleveland Williams was arguably no worse than the third-best heavyweight in the world at that moment. And he felt he hadn't reached his peak yet.

If Patterson had chosen Williams to meet instead of Liston (and most people didn't want him to fight Liston so it was possible) ... there's a good chance Cleveland Williams would've beaten Patterson and become the champ himself.

I've always been a fan of Patterson, but I don't know if the Floyd Patterson who was fighting Tom McNeeley would've successfully defended against Cleveland Williams. At that time, Williams definitely could've been champ. Without question.

Anyway, here's the artice. It's a pretty softball interview. What I found interesting though was:

* That Williams felt he, Patterson and Liston were all on the same level.
* That (with a record of 52-4) he felt he was still improving as a fighter.
* That he hoped he (Williams) would be heavyweight champ by the time Cassius Clay was ready to fight for the title.
* And I thought it was interesting that Sonny Liston reffed the Williams-Terrell fight and talked smack to Williams during the bout, heckling him (or as Williams described it "jazzing him up") because he wasn't finishing Terrell fast enough.

Why was Liston allowed to ref a fight between two rising contenders, especially involving one (Williams) who he had a grudge with?

Can you imagine if David Haye had reffed the Vitali Klitschko-Chisora fight, for example, and talked smack to one or both the whole time? Talk about chaos.

Williams interview - Page 1
http://postimg.org/image/ureebjixz/

Williams interview - Page 2
http://postimg.org/image/bdnb3qgfx/

 

Regarding a Norton and Williams fight, both were stiff and kind of muscle-bound. Norton dragged his back foot like he had a cinder block attached to it.

Both also could be overwhelmed when faced with a big puncher. Norton went into a total shell when hurt.

Pretty even fight. Whoever goes for the KO first probably overwhelms the other guy.

I'd lean toward Norton, just because he had better endurance. But either could win a short fight by KO.

 

It is a healthy attitude. Most top fighters tend to talk like that.

But, aside from the two Liston losses, Williams was 52-2 and on the rise.

Liston was better than Patterson and Williams. He proved it by blowing out both of them.

But I wouldn't be confident in saying Floyd Patterson was a sure thing to beat Cleveland Williams.

Williams was arguably the SECOND best heavyweight in 1962, with Patterson number three and Johansson number four. (I don't know if I'd have picked Ingemar over Cleveland Williams in 1962.)

People don't mention it much, but it would've been interesting if Patterson had faced Cleveland Williams in 1962 instead of Liston.

What if it had been Williams who stopped Patterson in 1962 and 1963 (and he doesn't meet Machen or rematch with Terrell)?

Being the heavyweight champion, maybe Williams doesn't get shot by police and maybe Williams is the heavyweight champion in 1964 when Ali gets his crack at the title.

What's interesting about the interview is that people don't often view Williams as a peer of Liston and Patterson at the top in 1962, because of Sonny's two wins over Williams. But Williams performed better against Liston than Patterson did. I think Floyd would have a terrible time trying to beat Cleveland Williams.

Williams may have been the number-two heavyweight in the world in 1962 behind Liston. If Williams had faced Patterson before Sonny, history may have been quite different.

If you watch Williams tear into Liston in the first round, it's frightening to think what would've happened to the much smaller Patterson if Cleveland had attacked Floyd like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWbpM99wD2M

 

I know lasting only one or two rounds longer isn't a big claim. My point is people dismiss Williams because he lost to Liston twice, but so did Patterson (twice). Floyd wasn't even competitive.

I'm not saying Williams was better than Liston at all. He wasn't.

But, stylistically and from a power and size perspective, I don't think Williams was worse than Patterson in 1961/1962. Liston looked huge next to Floyd. And Williams looked huge next to Liston. I like Williams' quote in the article where he says if he tagged Floyd he'd "stay tagged."

In 1962, other than Liston, there wasn't anyone clearly better than Cleveland Williams. Ingo was a bloated mess. Patterson was getting flattened by everyone (even McNeeley).

The Liston-Williams fights were both significant because they were the two most ferocious heavyweights at that time. I don't think Floyd would've necessarily beaten either of them. They were both all wrong for him.

If Floyd had buckled under public pressure and chose not to fight Liston, and he picked Williams instead, I think Cleveland would've won the title and Liston might've been the frustrated contender who may have ended up getting shot by police (he'd narrowly avoided it before) and not received a title shot until the late 60s.

 

This sounds like a cop out, but it depends on whether Norton freezes up against this big puncher as he had a habit of doing. Against ****ey, Shavers, and Foreman, Norton when out early. Granted he was old against ****ey. If he did not freeze early, than I pick Norton by decision. He turned down fights against Lyle at least twice, I think I know why.