They could be the same on two counts. #1, that neither was anymore dangerous puncher than the other at contender level and #2, that the best punchers knocked them both out. However, Norton beat Ali, quarry and Jimmy Young when they were all highly ranked. I don't see equivalent wins like this with Williams. Williams flunked fights with Terrell and Machen when they were both highly rated. That's before he got shot. Yes Norton was blown out by Foreman like Williams was blown out by Liston but the saving grace here is the actual wins Norton has either side of this. Williams can't match this. A split decision loss to Terrell is not the same as a split decision loss to prime Larry Holmes either. Nobody says Terrell and Holmes were the same have they?
The difference is that in this bout Williams is the puncher and he will aggressively pursue Norton. Norton did not do well when huge ko punchers aggressively pursued him.
At the very highest level, against Proven ATG punchers. Williams really was more of a sitting duck. Williams knock out ratio against world level fighters is not good. Yes he could punch! But so could Lamar Clark. What do you make of him? If Clark had been good enough to narrowly lose to a non punching contender like Terrell would you rate him as an ATG puncher capable of taking out Floyd Patterson and Ken Norton?
He's not the puncher in this fight because Williams for all his power proved not to be effective against guys of Ken Norton's class. Did Billy Daniels have a better chin than Norton? Style advantage works both ways. Norton had a good overhand right, better than the one Daniels kept landing on Williams.
You can't look at one bout and then project that result to a hypothetical encounter. We do know when in the ring vs an all time puncher Norton gets crushed. Not just loses,,,,,,,crushed. By all accounts Williams was an all time puncher. Liston, Foreman and Ali all attest to this as a fact. Only a handful of posters on a boxing web site somehow think they can change boxing history. I nor anyone in the know from that era would bet on Norton lasting 5 rounds with any puncher such as Williams. Norton did not have the style or chin to last very long in there with powerhouses. Liston......"Williams punched very hard and he was quick".
So really by three accounts, one of whom never even fought Williams. Ali? Did Williams even land a punch in that fight? So basically Williams must have been an all-time puncher because Sonny Liston (who made light work of Williams twice) said he was... As I said, you'd think an all-time puncher would have a few noteworthy KOs (or even knockdowns) of top fighters to his name. Foreman, Louis, Tyson, Langford, Shavers, Johansson, Dempsey, Marciano, Tua, Liston and Klitschko all do. Williams doesn't...
You believe something not backed by experts from that time. Very minority opinion and more than likely very inaccurate. Liston fought Williams and so did Ali and both praised his punching ability. Foreman possibly boxing hardest puncher sparred with Williams and he felt his power. Three incredible first hand opinions. Then add to this expert opinion from that time. Scales are tipped solidly only one way. Not in your favor unfortunately. Liston ......"Williams hit very hard and he was quick"
You believe something not backed up by his actual record... Don't you find it strange that an all-time puncher has no all-time KOs of top fighters on his resume? Who are these "experts" you keep referring to? Can you point me to the punches Williams landed against Ali for Ali's opinion of his punching power to have any validity? When/where did Foreman make those comments about Williams? What exactly did he say?
Sonny Liston called Cleveland Williams the hardest puncher he ever faced. George Foreman called Cleveland Williams, Ron Lyle and Gerry ****ey the hardest punchers he ever faced. (And he only sparred with Williams. He sparred with Liston, too.) Ernie Terrell called Cleveland Williams the hardest puncher he ever faced. Roy Harris - who fought Liston - said Cleveland Williams was the hardest puncher he ever faced (and he only sparred with Williams). Who called Ken Norton the hardest puncher they ever faced? Um, I can't think of a single person.
The thing with this fight is that it's not about who hits hardest. It's about who is more effective. Now this is Norton. By miles. Norton does not need to hit harder, he just needs to be more effective. He was. And that's all there is to it. Ali, Young and Quarry displayed this on film. It's demonstrated. Norton was highly effective at a level Williams could never win at. Williams was a monster, strong man. Fast. So sure people who shared a ring with the big Cat would recognise this even without his best punches landing on them they can tell that if he landed correctly anybody would be in trouble with Williams. And that's fine. It's like saying "he is still effective without hitting correctly" a great testament.. There is nothing wrong with boxing people saying he hit hardest. Hitting hardest doesn't always win fights. It's knocking guys out that cuts the mustrd. nobody was saying Williams was hard to hit or coped with much of a punch himself are they? And crucially his power never made the grade against leading fighters. Norton was a leading fighter. If Williams can't stop Bethea and Daniels, he is not stopping Ken Norton. So that means he needs to be more effective than he ever was in real life and outbox Norton. I don't see it. His best night he only drew with a guy Ingo Johansson punched flat inside of a round. You would have to give Ingo more chance against Norton.
The underlined is a silly argument.Bethea was only stopped once by Liston, boxing does not work that way. It's akin to saying if Bert Whitehurst couldn't be stopped by Sonny Liston in 2 tries Eddie Machen Sante Amonte Archie Moore x2 Willie James And 179lbs Joe Rowan have no chance of turning the trick , yet all of them did.
That last point is completely irrelevant, as we aren't debating whether Norton or Williams hit harder. Sugar Ray Leonard said Marcus Geraldo was the hardest puncher he faced. Do you think Geraldo was a harder puncher than Hearns, Hagler and Duran?
You asked who these "experts" were who claimed Williams punched hard. So I answered you. Once you heard it was Foreman, Liston, Terrell and Harris ... now it's "irrelevant." :roll:
Ernie Terrell His toughest opponent: Cleveland Williams https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-pleAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vVINAAAAIBAJ&pg=4798,539251&dq=&hl=en On Cleveland Williams: “He was the strongest fighter I ever fought.” http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles/6048-ernie-terrell-chicagos-heavyweight-champion On Cleveland Williams: “His left hook is poison.” https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Sy8_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=9lAMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3337,4585601&dq=&hl=en
George Foreman Hardest punchers he ever faced: C00ney, Lyle and Cleveland Williams in sparring https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmG_gR576EA
